Muhammad Reveals...

[MMMMMM]

The direct Word of God : Koran

[3:85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

[4:34] Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have
expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them.

[4:89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allahs way; but if they turn back,
then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

[5: 33-34] "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom; Save those who repent before ye overpower them. For know that Allah is forgiving, merciful."

[8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every
fingertip of them.

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a
state of subjection.

[22:19-22] But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and
(it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning.


[41:27] But We will certainly give the Unbelievers a taste of a severe Penalty, and We will requite them for the worst of their deeds.

[48.16] Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you
turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment

[69:30-37] "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

[69:30-37] "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but
sinners eat."

[76: 4] "Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers chains, yokes and a blazing fire."

[Clarkmeister]

Do you really want someone posting all the heinous passages in the Old Testament?

[MMMMMM]

That occurred to me, but it would be a mistaken assumption that the passages are truly comparable. Further, a great many Muslims today believe literally in the Koran. In fact, any "moderate" Muslims are on the defensive in this respect. Muslim clerics take the Koran literally, and the Koran is supposed to contain the direct word of Allah which is good for all time.

Also, nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus advocate the torture or slaughter of non-believers. I think he even speaks of turning the other cheek if someone strikes you. He certainly does not advocate forcing Christianity on anyone. Muhammad on the other hand is as warlike, violent and aggressive as he could possibly be about spreading the religion he invented (or had "revealed" to him).

My point is that it is Fascism--both in ideology, and practically speaking in those countries ruled by Islamic law. Religiously sanctioned Fascism, yes, but Fascism just the same. I don't think that can be said today about any other religion--no countries except Islamic countries today are ruled by religious fascism.

Apparently some people find it offensive or disturbing to point out significant and pernicious flaws in other people's ways of thinking or living. Well, I believe in evaluating everything on its own merits (or lack thereof). Any system which brutally and ruthlessly represses free thought and free expression should be identified as such, even if it is a religion.

The more a free-thinker delves into Islam, the more disturbing its ideology and practices begin to appear. But then, I hate the ideologies and practices of Castro's Cuba, Red China, and the former USSR too. It is clear, however, that not everyone shares my views. Some think that ruthless repression and totalitarianism are OK things. Others just may not realize that Islam is at heart a totalitarian ideology and code for living. While some may be offended at my words, I am offended that such repressive systems even exist. I am offended that people are being killed for their words and beliefs. I am offended at Islamic treatment of women (as is Amnesty International).

Totalitarian systems are an offense to all mankind, and have caused more harm and suffering in the world than probably anything else humans have ever invented.

[Clarkmeister]

M,

I don't think its a matter of people sharing or not sharing your views. I think its simply a matter of your posting habits. I can't speak for anyone else, but it seems to me that you obsess on this subject, bringing it up whenever possible. One therefore questions the motives behind such single minded posting habits.

So while you are generally rather rational in your debating tendancies, and even concede points of debate far more often than most, your overwhelming number of anti-Islam posts leads one to sense a rather irrational Islamic hatred inside of you. This causes people to either begin ignoring altogether, or to perceive you as being bigoted.

Again, this isn't an attack. Rather I am just trying to let you know how your posts (both the volume and content) are perceived by some posters.

Peace.

[HDPM]

"Do you really want someone posting all the heinous passages in the Old Testament? "


There are some ridiculous passages in the Old Testament and some awful requirements. But there is one very important and legitimate difference between the practice of the Old Testament i.e. Judaism and what I understand of the practice of Islam. Judaism has a long intellectual history about interpreting the laws in the Old Testament. Out of that came many requirements in the practice of Judaic law. I do not have extensive knowledge of these requirements, but I have some. For instance, the Old Testament often admonishes death for certain offenses. Early on, the practice was interpreted to put so many requirements on a death penalty that it was just impossible to put people to death for all the crap the Bible says to kill people over. Humans put so many requirements on the thing that it became a humane code. Animal sacrifice was also required in the Old Testament, but done away with long ago. These type of developments have led to an intellectual and humane religion for the most part. And I am talking about the practice of the religion in backwards, undeveloped places.
Islam does not have a comparable history. As I see it, there are many clerics who do not hesitate to order death or torture in various places. Of course, not all the religious leaders or practitioners are like that, but I do not think it can be seriously argued that Islam is less violent and inhumane in its worldwide practice than Judaism. Perhaps it will evolve, but that remains to be seen.
Of course, the problem with comparing religions is that the comparative irrationality is a matter of degree. I mean, it is hard to say that the believer in irrational mystical unknowable thing X is so far ahead of the believer in irrational mystical unknowable thing Y. All religions have members who behave well, and all religions have rotten, violent, evil practitioners. So it can be dangerous to say, "well, Islam is worse than religion x." However, given the horrendous things people do in the name of religion, I think it is appropriate to point out the problems in particular religions. And I don't think it can be argued that there are not Islamic forces out there that would very much like to damge civilization and force people to lead very primitive Islamic lives. And that should be stopped. No other religion is posing such a widespread threat at this point. So it is fair to point out some of the things in the Koran that lead people to commit horrible acts. So I also think it is OK to rank religions on the number of people they hurt or kill. And under that standard, Islam doesn't fare quite as well as, say, Buddhism.

[MMMMMM]

Thanks for letting me know these things. I do tend to obsess a bit on things which I view as stupid and harmful, and I've gone through phases where I've probably over-posted on other issues too.

I also feel that many Westerners simply assume that Islam and the Judeo/Christian faiths are simply two sides of the same coin. However there is much more intolerance built into Islam, IMO, and I believe it helps foster terrorism (in combination with other factors). So if I've over-posted I apologize to everyone. On the other hand, I think most Americans and Europeans really don't understand the totalitarian and incompatible nature of the ideology we are running into conflicts with. Anyway, thanks for your candid assessment.

[Michael Davis]

However, this is not the way Muhammad actually lived. He was admittedly a violent conqueror who required submission to his authority. Personally, he was more concerned with submission to political authority than religious. This was a distinction that Muhammad did make, and one that quickly disappeared in Islam. Once this was given, he allowed the "people of the Book" to live in relative peace. His treatment of Judaism is particularly impressive.

Mike

[MMMMMM]

Interesting. But did he not also require that all non-Muslims under his rule pay a special tax (probably in order to be allowed to live in peace)?

[Mason Malmuth]

"Animal sacrifice was also required in the Old Testament, but done away with long ago."

Just a small point concerning your post, but that's not quite the way I understand it. First however, let me preface my comments by stating that I am certainly not expert in this area. But here's how I understand this point.

The Old Testament gives three ways in which to obtain attonement. They are prayer, charity, and animal sacrifice. Of these three, animal sacrifice was least important. Furthermore, the Old Testament states, and don't ask me where it says this, that the Jews will be without the animal sacrifice option for many years.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Mike:

This is an interesting point that most people today don't understand. When the armies of Mohammad began to move, there were numerous religions in the region. These included many people who believed in the Greek Gods (which the Romans adopted) and Zoroasterism (if I spelt it right) which was widespread in what we know today as Iraq and Iran. These religions were essentially wiped out since they were not "people of the Book."

Best wishes,
Mason