Hand I butchered - JJ in SB

[Six_of_One]

This is a hand from 8-16 last night at the Bike. Don't hold back now:

EP and MP limp, button raises. I give him credit for a pretty good hand, probably 99-AA or AJ to AK. I hold JJ in the SB. I call, BB calls, limpers call. 5 see the flop

4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets. BB is pretty new at the table, but he has been playing a lot of hands. EP limper folds, MP limper calls, button raises. I 3-bet, BB caps. MP calls, button angrily folds his TT face up. I call.

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets, MP calls, I call.

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets, MP calls, I fold.

I think I made at least a couple of mistakes, but I want to hear what others think. Results to follow.

[LarsVegas]

Actually seems pretty fine by me. Turn and river both close between calling/folding, but the call-fold combination is not terrible here. You win an enourmous pot here if you river a Jack, a seven may very well be an out as well and furthermore win a few, rare pots unimproved checked through on the river.

This is also definitely one of the pots where the caller between on the river should lean you more towards folding as opposed to other over-calling situations where you are uncertain about the call, but you *know* the in-between caller is dead money to your hand.

This is a typical "difficult" hand to play. Everybody gets them. Some plays them real well, many screw up badly often. You did, at least, reasonable. Based on this hand, there is no reason to think that you cannot be a very good limit Holdem player.

lars

[astroglide]

why 3bet the flop but not 3bet preflop? you seemed to give him credit for a better hand, and when he took more action (raising the flop) to indicate this, you 3bet him.

i would have 3bet preflop and went from there.

[Six_of_One]

I agree...the second after I just called his raise pre-flop, I was kicking myself for not 3-betting. Definitely a mistake, IMO.

[risen]

I'm going to say 3 bet this preflop, unless you're playing with some real wackos, the whole table shouldn't be calling 2 cold especially with the possiblity of the button capping. But since you didn't, I like the flop play checking with the intention of raising the Button if he opens the betting, but he doesn't. When it's 2 bets to you, with 3 people in the pot already, I think it's time to abandon the check raise and lay it down. Even a call doesn't close the action, and you might get capped anyhow. This unexpected action on a semi coordinated board is telling me JJ might not work. Between sets, flush draws (I'm assumed you didn't have J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), and over cards, it's pretty hard to find many cards in the deck you'd like to see on the turn and river.

[Six_of_One]

After the BB bet out on the river and MP called, I figured I had to be beat, so I folded.

The BB clearly didn't want to turn over his hand. MP turned over A6o and said "Straight!" BB then turned over the same hand. BB said, "No, you have Ace high." Turns out MP had misread the board, thinking the river card was 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] instead of 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], which would have given him a straight. He only called because he was afraid someone had the flush.

Had MP folded, I probably would have called the river. Bad luck, I guess. Still, even after thinking about it as much as I have, I can't bring myself to believe folding the river was a mistake. My mistakes came on other parts of the hand.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a hand from 8-16 last night at the Bike. Don't hold back now:

EP and MP limp, button raises. I give him credit for a pretty good hand, probably 99-AA or AJ to AK. I hold JJ in the SB. I call, BB calls, limpers call. 5 see the flop

4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets. BB is pretty new at the table, but he has been playing a lot of hands. EP limper folds, MP limper calls, button raises. I 3-bet, BB caps. MP calls, button angrily folds his TT face up. I call.

Turn: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets, MP calls, I call.

River: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check, BB bets, MP calls, I fold.

I think I made at least a couple of mistakes, but I want to hear what others think. Results to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read the responses yet but i see a few regulars so I'm assuming they'll have better advice than i do.

that being said I think your first mistake was not reraising in the sb to at least TRY to cut down the field. you give no info about the looseness/tightness of the game so i can't say whether this reraise will work. I understand you definately (possibly) had the intention of checkraising a favorable flop to limit the field but theres one problem: you're not charging hands that will hit a favorable flop to you very much preflop and you're not in position to gain that lost equity back.

flops good to JJ are something like T52. people who play too many hands are likely to call one raise with t5s but maybe not 2 bets from the bb. further, if the flop comes like it did, people will often play low suited one/two/even 3 gappers for one bet in the bb vs. two in the bb. so reraising should save you this pot a good deal of times something like this would have happened.

since you didn't reraise i think the flop play wasn't too bad since you wanted to c-r and did so charging all draws if the bb likes to pump his/her draws, of which there are two pretty obvious ones not to mention an already made straight. so 3betting the buttons reraise is ok.

but checking the turn is bad. heres why, IMO: if you ARE still in the lead and check you're offering a free card to any overcard flush draw and any 8,6,or9 a free draw at a straight. now i realize those 8/9 draws are unlikely given the amount of bets put in on the flop and from the looks of it MP might have something like A7 and is scared of the straight and then the flush on the river despite hitting trips on the turn. (or 87 and still fears the flush on the river). but betting out is best because you can always fold to a raise, you planned to check and call anyways, and you have possibly 2 outs assuming a straight or 7 is out there. ideally the jc but thats just dreaming. HPFAP states for the most part to bet hands with no outs on the turn and check ones with outs (presumably more than 2 lol).

given the check and call on the turn the river is up to you. i'd even go so far as to fold on the turn since there are MANY MANY hands the bb will play for one raise in that pot that will just be smacked in the face by that flop and have you in very bad shape. and since you said he plays to many hands i also assume he usually isn't raising and reraising since loose players (at least live loosey's) tend to be relatively passive until they hit something...looks like the bb hit something pretty hard. possibly a flopped straight or 2 pair turned boat. or baby boat here.

notice how much easier this hand is to play if you reraised from the sb. you can get out quicker, no need to put in 4 bets on the flop, and can charge the weaker hands more to draw to hit the flop.

clearly i think a river fold is good since flush came as well and 86 would already be a made straight.

this also may be one of those times that i'd fold a winner here on the turn but so be it...i feel im behind enough of the times that it would be a waste of 2 big bets to see a showdown.

-Barron

[SammyB]

No one ever got rich at hold 'em by folding for one bet on the river.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
No one ever got rich at hold 'em by folding for one bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who needs $ when you have the respect of the 2+2 community? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[bobbyi]

This is true, but not nearly so good as the quote about the fruit plate. Anyone remember that one?

Btw, I had thought the quote you gave from Angelina? But my memory is poor, so I'm probably wrong.

But anyway, that's not why I'm posting'