The turn donk in 6 Max.

Stealthy · #1 11-09-2005, 07:28 PM

I have real real trouble dealing with the donk bet on the turn when I have a decent but vulnerable hand. Here is an example although probably not a good one.

The BB here is 42/13/0.6 after only 30 hands so not a lot to be made of that apart from being your normal loose 6 Max player.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero folds

This seems to be a pretty easy fold what about this 2nd 0ne?

BB here is 59/12/1.5 after 90 hands so reasonably aggressive for a player seeing that many flops.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero?

These donk bets into an aggressor have me baffled as so often they can mean a 2 pair or better that they don't want me to check the turn on but a significant few times they are with air. Is there any good way to deal with them or is it a purely down to reads?

zuluking · #2 11-09-2005, 07:42 PM

Hand #1- I would raise the turn, call a re-raise and fold the river UI. If its not re-raised then I bet for value on the river.

Hand #2- Same thing.

#3 11-09-2005, 07:48 PM

hand 1: even if he has bottom two pair, or second pair, you still only have 2 outs to beat him, so I think this is a fairly easy fold. Given his low aggro, it seems he's made a hand.

hand 2: actually, I think BB is more than average aggro, because his 1.5 represents how he is betting/raising his 60%vpip. Hence, he will often bet with hands like 2nd pair. Not near maniacal tho. Having said that, I think this card shows that you are WA/WB. If he has the ace, 3, or JJ, you're dead to two outs. You are way ahead of all sorts of other hands. It's a small pot, but I might just call down here and on the river to see what he is betting with. Another option is to raise, but getting 3-bet would suck balls, and I think we want a showdown.

Stealthy · #4 11-09-2005, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1- I would raise the turn, call a re-raise and fold the river UI. If its not re-raised then I bet for value on the river.

Hand #2- Same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that a little agro for $1 $2? I understand the play perfectly for higher limits when you can actually get players off of hands but in hand 1 a Jack or ten is going nowhere and hand 2 even A2 is not folding at the $1 $2 limits, or any pair for a lot of the players.

A raise in the 2nd one I can see might be good against this player who might have air but then again he will fold if he has nothing whilst I can pick up a river bet by just calling.

Perhaps you can explain it better but I dislike a raise in hand 2 and positively HATE it in hand 1!

Koss · #5 11-09-2005, 07:49 PM

Hand 1 I fold. I see donks do this with flush draws often, but facing 2 overs I'm not willing to put 2 more BB's into this pot.

Hand 2 I call him down. One thing I see a lot at this level is people trying to represent something they really don't have. You're probably betting a turn so if he really had a 3 why wouldn't he check/raise? Against a 59/12/1.5 he's often making this play with trash, or a flush draw. Sure, sometimes you'll get shown a 3 or an Ace, but I'm willing to call him down and pay it off.

Duerig · #6 11-09-2005, 08:00 PM

Hand 1: I raise and fold to a 3 bet. If he's on a flush draw, make him pay you now while he's still drawing. If you get 3 bet, you are most likely way behind here.

EDIT: I'd check behind on the river.

Hand 2: I call down. Villain probably doesn't have the 3 and is trying to scare you. Raising will make him stop bluffing if he's bluffing, and it will make him 3 bet you if he has a 3.

Stealthy · #7 11-09-2005, 08:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I raise and fold to a 3 bet. If he's on a flush draw, make him pay you now while he's still drawing. If you get 3 bet, you are most likely way behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming I am not 3 bet here and push the SB out by raising does my opponent not have a Jack, Ten or better here often enough to make this +EV?

McGahee · #8 11-09-2005, 08:43 PM

Yeah sometimes these donkbets are easy to read. In these instances they really aren't.

Hand #1 I'd probably raise with 1 less overcard on the board. It kinda looks like a flush draw, but the problem is that the flush draw may very well include the J or T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hand #2 is almost certainly not a 3, but it looks like a "test the waters with my weak Ace" bet, so I probably fold that one too.

That may sound weak, but there are lots of instances I like raising these turn bets with PP's. It just so happens that the board texture doesn't look that great for your hands in these particular cases. Also be on the lookout for future donks at this table if it keeps happening, but that goes without saying.

IPSC · #9 11-09-2005, 11:36 PM

The only way that I've been able to take on turn donks is by really paying attention to the game. I'll try and take notes and keep track of any non-standard plays. The times you don't have a good read, I have been opting to pony up the 2 big bets to get to showdown in certain situations. I'll also be more apt to call down if a particular player has been taking shots at me on the turn after calling preflop raise and a flop bet.

Both of those hands are pretty tough without reads. I don't think you can raise either of these hands for value, or as a free showdown play. I don't think these are good hands to call down either. I'd probably fold both of these unless the villian has been donking me earlier.