river bluff vs thinking lag

sillyarms · #1 10-20-2005, 04:01 AM

villan( link to another hand with villan as villan2 ) is a thinking loose agressive player. He is betting often enough he is forcing me to make some guesses and play poker with him.

Party Poker (6 max, 6 handed)

Seat 5: villan ( $200 )
Seat 1: me ( $200.30 )
Seat 2: nit1 ( $354.73 )
Seat 3: nit2 ( $0 )
Seat 6: nit3 ( $80.50 )
Seat 4: lag ( $530.45 )
nit1 posts small blind [$1].
lag posts big blind [$2].
villan posts big blind + dead [$3].

Preflop:
Dealt to me [ K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
villan checks.
nit1 folds.
me raises [$8]. This is a standard open raise for me. I'm in position and I beleive villan and lag will both give me action with a range of hands I am beating and the nits will usually fold(if the nits call I'm behind).
nit3 folds.
lag calls [$6].
villan calls [$6].

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot $26)
lag checks
villan checks
me checks. My first instinct is to bet here against your average player that's my move. but I don't feel I have alot of folding equity against these two, the possibility of a reraise is too big, and they have seen that line several times out of me so i wanna mix it up.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Pot $26)
lag checks
villan bets $25
Me calls. I suspect this bet to be a bluff. I haven't seen him slowplay yet. If he had any peice of this board I think he would have bet on the flop just like he bets everything else. I have a good draw, position, and I suspect he's full of it.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Pot $76)
villan checks
hero bets $50. At this point I suspect he is weak. I don't think I can win at a showdown, and I don't think he can call this bet 50% of the time.

Comments on all streets appreciated

sillyarms · #2 10-20-2005, 04:44 AM

not interesting? Ok I really want some feedback on why I got called here so I'm going to post the results.

me bets [$50].
villan: this will be the best call ive made all day
villan calls [$50].
me shows [ K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ] high card ace.
villan shows [ 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] a pair of fives.
villan wins $174 from the main pot with a pair of fives.
me: nc

xorbie · #3 10-20-2005, 04:46 AM

He called because your hand looks like the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I would recommend raising the turn to $75, for two reasons. One is that it lets you get money in not drawing dead, which is kinda sexy. Two it lets you build a pot in case he does have something respectable, so this way you can bet the river if you do hit. Three it has like 80 million times more fold equity. The downside is you could get 3-bet, but seriously that would take huge cajones.

RED FACE · #4 10-20-2005, 03:25 PM

I think your play on river is good. You're presenting a slowplay and thus a big hand. I wonder how much data he has on you. He made a great call thinking the only thing that beats him is a hand so big it's a slowplay thus AA, QQ, AQ, nut flush. But that's the problem, combined w him being a thinking player and *L*ag. You would've protected your set vs the draw at the very least by the turn. Thus the only hand he fears is the flopped flush and you raised pre so you prob don't have that either.

He made a great call. I hope you made notes on him.

It's funny how often I don't continue bet and find out later it would've worked perfectly. This is often the case when I flop a draw in position. The draw and position disuades my from cont betting. As you can understand, this tendency can make you want to punch yourself in the face.

amoeba · #5 10-20-2005, 03:27 PM

bet the flop.

if you get checkraised, push allin.

xorbie · #6 10-20-2005, 07:17 PM

Yeah, flopping draws means you should be continuation betting nearly 100% of the time.

Riposte · #7 10-20-2005, 07:45 PM

Major equity you got on the flop here, and if you think you don't have serious folding equity on a flop like this, well, you do. Bet the flop.

sillyarms · #8 10-20-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how much data he has on you. He made a great call thinking the only thing that beats him is a hand so big it's a slowplay thus AA, QQ, AQ, nut flush. But that's the problem, combined w him being a thinking player and *L*ag. You would've protected your set vs the draw at the very least by the turn. Thus the only hand he fears is the flopped flush and you raised pre so you prob don't have that either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right, He has enough data to know that I would have protected a monster by now. Therefore my call on the turn either ment draw, or mediocre holding, or a 1st or 2nd nut flush. He can probally also safely assume I would have bet a flush by now because slowplay isn't really a part of my game. I don't really think he can make any major assumptions about my pf raise though as I beleive he knows I would do this with any hand I decided to play and was first to enter the pot. By the time I bet strong on the river he can rule out the mediocre hand and all he is left with is a bluff. But, yeah you pretty much hit the nail on the head. When I am planning my lines I don't think i am adaquetly thinking about what they think I have. Thank you.

Allinlife · #9 10-20-2005, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bet the flop.

if you get checkraised, push allin.

[/ QUOTE ]
ditto.

I would have made the same call as villan. (not pfr but on the river)

sillyarms · #10 10-20-2005, 09:59 PM

If I bet the flop and get called. What do you reccomend doing on the turn if I miss against a loose agressive(but smart) opponet?