Opponents Playing Back at You

[BoogieDown]

I was wondering what you guys thought about the theory that if you are playing your typical aggressive game at a table but missing your flops or getting sucked out more often than usual, the fish will begin "playing back" at you and start bluff raising you causing you to fold marginal hands.

Do you think fish (i.e., opponents that typically only think on the first level or second level) are taking shots at you, or is it just coincidental that they are hitting their cards when you're missing and it is just tilt induced paranoia? I think in the heat of the moment it feels like the former, but in reality, it's mostly the latter.

Similarly, do you ever adjust your play against a TAGy player that is missing his flops often and/or gets sucked out, and begin taking shots at him?

Thoughts?

[krimson]

Fish don't realize the difference between a good player experiecing negative variance and a bad player. They will start playing back at you because they think you suck. I don't think the thought process is much deeper than that.

[LuvDemNutz]

[ QUOTE ]
Fish don't realize the difference between a good player experiecing negative variance and a bad player. They will start playing back at you because they think you suck. I don't think the thought process is much deeper than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he does suck.

[BoogieDown]

[ QUOTE ]
Fish don't realize the difference between a good player experiecing negative variance and a bad player. They will start playing back at you because they think you suck. I don't think the thought process is much deeper than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you last sentence contradicts the previous sentence. IMO, if a fish "plays back" it means they put you on a hand and then adjusts his typically passive playing style (yes, I added this to the definition of "fish") to take a shot at you by raising with a bluff or marginal hand since they think that the community cards missed you. This is a fairly complex thought process.

[krimson]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you last sentence contradicts the previous sentence. IMO, if a fish "plays back" it means they put you on a hand and then adjusts his typically passive playing style (yes, I added this to the definition of "fish") to take a shot at you by raising with a bluff or marginal hand since they think that the community cards missed you. This is a fairly complex thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure it's me contradicting myself? It sounds like your trying to say that a "fish" (someone who is more or less clueless other than the rules of the game) is going through the thought process of making reads, seeing how the board affects his opponents, and pushing marginal situations?

I'm trying to say the thought process is waaaaay simpler for them. Player X is a good player, but is getting his ass kicked at this particular session. Everyone at the table is raising this player out of pots, and taking huge pots against him. To a fish he has an image of being a crappy player, therefore the fish starts following the lead of the rest of the table and starts raising against him, etc.

So, to sum up, the fish is not thinking through the process of taking advantage of player X, but merely mimic'ing what is happening at the table.

[LuvDemNutz]

When I think of a fish I think of -

a typical loose-passive player, who may or may not understand the importance of position, relative hand strengths, who chases draws without odds, etc, etc, etc.

Even these "fish" are capable of differentiating a passive vs. an aggressive player.
These fish aren't necessarily complete idiots after all just because they don't understnad or care to learn some of the basics of the game.

So yes, I think it is quite possible that the fish pick up on the fact that you are an aggressive player - therefore your bets do not necessarily mean that you have much of anything - and therefore they may play back at you.

[BoogieDown]

I agree with what you are saying, and maybe I wasn't clear in my original post, but I think that most of the time that we think a fish is playing back at us, they actually have good hands and it is just a figment of our tilt-induced imagination. The act of adjusting to an opponents style of play is a complex process that even experienced players have problems doing. I think the idea that opponents play back at you is often exaggerated.

And thanks for a "real" response Scotty [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Mikey]

this is a very good question and I believe it has to do with a few things.

1) How you look to your opponnents at this juncture of the game.
2) How you think your opponnents perceive you at this juncture of the game.

At this point what is going through you mind is what I like to call an "extra variable" that you are dealing with.

Not only are you running bad, but your good starter hands are missing flops, your opponnents are outdrawing your hands.

Your opponents now have this confidence when playing against you, because you look like the sucker.

I have to apologize but I can't really put into words what goes through my mind, so I'll give you a description of what happened to me.

I was playing in a 10-20 game and I lost a few hands here or there and haven't won a single pot in an hour. I was getting good starter cards and I was raising but my opponnents were isolating me, I would either have to release my hand on the flop or on the turn.
I picked up KK and ran into a flopped set of JJ which lost me some money.
I flopped a pair of Kings that ran into a gutshot straight.
I 3-bet with TT and was beat by A5o.
I open raised with AcQc and was cold called in 4 spots, then I had to release my hand on the flop when it came K 7 6 with two hearts.

Now to my opponnents I look wreckless, and passive.
One guy in the game seemed to be hitting every flop with garbage hands and he was racking up the chips. He was glowing with confidence, Another player to my left was pretty much in the same situation.

All of these things combined. I sat out and left.

Thats what you should be doing. If I were to stay and play I can't tell you exactly what would have happened, if I'd win or lose. I knew though that my edge was wearing away. They were so confident, excited, hitting hands and having fun. So I ended part of there fun by quitting the game.

Next time something like this happens its a good time to quit, because now you won't know whether or not they are taking shots at you or whether or not they actually have hands of value and have seen you fold so many times.

One thing is important is that there is history attached to your play now and history says that you've been involved in hands, losing, and you look like the sucker.

Quit now. This is a good way to put an end to there streak of glowing confidence.

Come and back later and start with a clean slate.

[BoogieDown]

Great post. Thanks. That is typically what I do, but I usually leave in a state of frustration.

[Buck_65]

[ QUOTE ]
So I ended part of there fun by quitting the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you do such a thing? You listed wishy-washy contradictive reasoning. Opponents were making massive mistakes, which make you a ton of money, whether or not the immediate short-term results agree. Plus, bad players having fun play even worse than bad players who aren't having a good time.

If leaving the table saves you from going on tilt, then I can respect your decision.