Limping QQ under the gun

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um there's something to be said for the fact that raising utg with qq does not require you to lose 500bb's ifyou flop an overpair to someone else's set outof position. also your statement about it being advanced theory that deep stack poker plays differently than small stacked poker is ludicrous. some people in this forum have played poker once or twice, so you may want to tone down the pedantic crap, especially when you make generalizations that often do not apply.

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I apologise for my pretentiousness. I'm willing to learn from good players that willing to impart advice and theory, except I'm learning very little poker and a lot of forum etiquette.

This is a very interesting point of discussion I feel - a huge but vulnerable hand way out of position. What do you do and why? I've explained my line well I think - playing this hand in that position to take a shallow stack and if multiway, as any other overpair that you can get away from.

I'm not sure where the lose 500BB thing came from; but I'd be worried with QQ if reraised by deep stack and most likely would fold like a little wuss (because 500BB is damn hard work to earn b&m) or call to hit a set.

[AZK]

A few counter thoughts to what you've said:

1 - It's hard to isolate hands with an UTG limp. I'd rather raise and get called by hands I dominate.

2 - Yes if I limp QJ and 78 my limp isn't scary, I'm probably losing more money on my other limps than I am making up for limping this, so I'll stick to mucking 78s UTG and raising QQ.

3 - How does a pot buildup to 30bbs preflop with your UTG limp?

4 - I don't understand how a "short stack" more standard stack for internet games will put me on a hand like TT on a Jack high flop and stack off with AJ. If this does happen, they would likely stack off with AJ when I raised with QQ anyway, so what's the point of limping?

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If you raise UTG and shortstack pushes - I'm going to have to call unless you know shortstack's pushing range is AA-KK; generally it's far bigger (I see A9 suited; AJ suited pushing here all the time in a 2/5 nl game) and there's a reason why they are shortstacked. This way there is a bigger pot filled with dead money. If it goes multiway and a family pot occurs - see the flop with the 3rd best starting hand in hold'em. Check/bet/call/fold depending on the board - easy.

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I don't mind calling QQ to a short stacks all in, I don't need anyone else coming along and if they play so tight that their hand range is AA/KK I can just fold. How much dead money are we talking, you limp, 4 other limps and a short stack goes all in for $100? So we pick up a few extra chips, is this really justifying a limp UTG? I don't think so.

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Now imagine you (standard TAG) raised UTG (7x BB for example) with a stack of 500BB. Someone with 700BB reraises. What now? Without a read this is a clear muck situation. 4/1 dog at worst, flip at best because you've already declared your hand as a premium and now someone that covers you is raising you.

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Um, play poker? If I think my hand is best I can reraise, if I think he is just using position I can reraise, if I think he has a better hand I call, if i think I can move him off his hand post flop I call, if he is difficult to play out of position I call, the list goes on and on... DId you really suggest mucking QQ to a reraise when you have 500bbs? If so, there are more holes in the game to patch up then whether or not to limp or raise QQ preflop.

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If you raise UTG and gets called by tricky deep stake (who would call with AA) - what now? What can you put him on? Rag board can be scary; broadway is scary, a 87, 67, 56, 98, any paired board is scary. You are out of position and you cannot proceed with any confidence and is liable to be outplayed postflop unless you hit your set. Call and hope to hit a set or muck.

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Once again, how about we play poker? No one has to go broke with 500 bb behind with QQ. You should know his calling standards based on your raising frequency and standards. You should be able to properly navigate through the hand so you don't lost 500xBB with QQ.


There is a lot more to poker than what you've mentioned. A lot of the advice you have given is inconsistent, wrong, or both. I don't have the time to fully flesh out an argument, it could just be that I don't feel like typing up a book, but believe me, it's nothing that you couldn't read on here like I have in the past. Just try and keep an open mind and you might learn something that you never thought of before. I cannot tell you how many times this has happened to me.

[Dr. StrangeloveX]

ya op doesn't seem like a douchebag; the brutality of the flaming around here could be toned down a bit.