Would you call this? Would you play this differently?

Garland · #1 10-12-2004, 12:08 AM

No special reads on this opponent:

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($65.25)
Garland ($177)
SB ($83.75)
BB ($77)
UTG ($45.50)
MP ($103.50)

Preflop: Garland is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Garland raises to $3, SB calls $2.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($7) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $2.75, Garland raises to $7.5, SB calls $4.75.

Turn: ($22) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Garland checks.

River: ($22) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $22, Garland ????

RYL · #2 10-12-2004, 12:42 AM

I never played 6-handed but I think you might be beat here. There so many possible ways you can be beat in this situation. A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] beats you. If he holds 77, KK, QQ, 55, you're beat. Your opponent calling your raise suggests to me he might have a pair or A suited, in this case clubs. Him betting into you also suggest to me that he might be trying to take the pot down with a flush draw. I would fold in this situation.

wabe · #3 10-12-2004, 12:48 AM

Why did you check the turn? You had 3rd nut flush; you need to know what he has? What could come on the river that would make you happy?

Garland · #4 10-12-2004, 01:31 AM

On one of my very first hands, the villian on the main post was involved in another pot against me. Without saying anything for now, I'll let the hand speak for itself...

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($68)
Garland ($104.50)
SB ($49)
BB ($50.50)
UTG ($72.75)
UTG+1 ($58.25)
UTG+2 ($44.75)
MP1 ($191)
MP2 ($52.75)
MP3 ($90.50)

Preflop: Garland is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, 2 folds, MP1 calls $1, 3 folds, Garland calls $1, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($5) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Garland checks.

Turn: ($5) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Garland checks.

River: ($5) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets $1, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, Garland raises to $3, SB raises to $8, Garland raises to $33, SB calls $25.

Final Pot: $71
Main Pot: $71, between Garland and SB. > Pot won by Garland ($71).

Garland has Js Kh (full house, kings full of jacks).
SB has Kd 9d (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Garland wins $71.

RYL · #5 10-12-2004, 01:43 AM

Wow that was pretty aggressive on the villians part. Your original post said that you had no reads on this opponent. So I responded accordingly. But after seeing this post I might possibly call his $22 because he might be bluffing thinking that your check indicated witness to him. I might also like to add that he might want to get back at you for winning that big pot before [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

jslag · #6 10-12-2004, 05:53 AM

It's a close decision. I don't mind mucking or calling really given how you played.

You have to bet that turn to find out where you are. Then you can check down on the river if he just smooth calls you with the A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on your turn bet. If he comes over the top, then you can fold your T-high flush.

J.

jslag · #7 10-12-2004, 05:56 AM

Also, I should mention that since you know he likes to slowplay his bigger hands, you have more of a reason to think that he was attemping to check-raise you on the turn. Since you showed weakness by checking behind, I think you should probably fold on the river. His flop bet also indicates that he may want to see another club cheaply... he probably isn't betting a K since you have one. This is screaming A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to me now that I thought about it.

GimmeDaWatch · #8 10-12-2004, 06:45 AM

I try to avoid situations like this where I like (but do not love) my hand by modestly value-betting the turn. The advantage of this line is that it gives you a much better read on where you are, especially if you're worried about being bluffed on the river, and many smaller clubs will just call you. Your check behind on the turn says "I dont have a club, please dont hurt me" and many aggressive players will try to take advantage of this. Now, he could easily have the A of clubs here, but I prefer to find that out more cheaply on the turn, b/c if he check-raises you, you can safely fold. Also, it is a MUCH bigger sign of strength if he smooth calls the turn and then leads out sizably on the river. As you played it, it is a pretty difficult decision, and I could either call or fold depending on the aggressiveness of the player, but probably fold.

Garland · #9 10-13-2004, 12:39 AM

I like what I'm hearing from a lot of people. I appreciate all the views. I called the bet and won against a bluff. I definitely think a river raise would be very wrong. The only question was why not bet the turn. My rationale for not betting the turn is there would be no value in betting. If he's calling/raising, he most probably has a higher club. The only case where betting the turn would be correct would be if he had 2 pair or a set to protect my flush. Other than that, I have a hammerlock on the hand, or he has the hammerlock on me. So I decided to let my 3rd nut club flush be either my value bet or my bluff catcher on the river and it worked! (he only had KJo no club) I was willing to call up to 70% of the pot with no quams. When he bet the entire pot on the river, I took about 15 or 20 seconds before deciding that the full house I beat him on earlier was incentive for him wanting "to get back at me". Well, the score is 2-0 now [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($65.25)
Garland ($177)
SB ($83.75)
BB ($77)
UTG ($45.50)
MP ($103.50)

Preflop: Garland is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Garland raises to $3, SB calls $2.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($7) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $2.75, Garland raises to $7.5, SB calls $4.75.

Turn: ($22) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Garland checks.

River: ($22) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $22, Garland calls $22.

Final Pot: $66
Main Pot: $66, between Garland and SB. > Pot won by Garland ($66).

Garland has Tc Ks (flush, king high).
SB has Kh Jd (two pair, kings and fives).
Outcome: Garland wins $66.

Cannes · #10 10-13-2004, 12:51 AM

I think checking this hand to the river is a big mistake. You've flopped a boat. Either you'll get action or you won't
Your opponent was also slowplaying! Imagine the pot you could have built if you had started at the flop...
Same goes when you flop the nut flush. Bet that baby. You'll get action often enough.