2 KK Hands

closer2313 · #1 08-18-2005, 02:27 AM

I always have trouble playing in this situation, so hopefully you guys will give me some top notch advice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Hand 1

Table is playing pretty loose and passive. SB is a little loose preflop and somewhat aggressive. Button is loose and aggressive preflop. Both of them play pretty passively after the flop.

Flop

I guess there could be worse flops for my hand, but I bet out because I might still have the best hand and I dont want to give any free cards. I get 2 callers.

Turn

Another ace reducing the probability of them having an ace in the hole. I bet again because I still might have the best hand. If I get raised by either of these 2 passive players, its a fold right?

River

Relative Blank, value bet? Should I have checked?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (9 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (9 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Hand 2

Same table, so still loose and passive. I dont have any hands on either of the 2 players. I really didn't know how to proceed vs an unknown on the flop after he raised me. Any advice? If he was particually passive I would be more apt to just fold it. If he was more aggressive I would be more apt to get to a showdown. Against an unknown I'm not really sure. Also complicating the fact is SB's cold call on the flop. Thanks again for any advice!

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, SB calls, Hero ?????

#2 08-18-2005, 03:52 AM

Hand 1 is good, hand 2 I fold.

#3 08-18-2005, 06:29 AM

Hand 1 is fine. i would guess villian is calling down with a pair of lower quality. QQ or JJ.
Hand 2, i would call the raise, then see what happens on the turn.

MATT111 · #4 08-18-2005, 07:07 AM

Hand 1: Good.
Hand 2: Easy fold. If it got HU you might want to call this down. As SB cold-called you are VERY likely drawing to 2 outs. The pot isn`t big. Don`t invest any more money here.

Fantam · #5 08-18-2005, 07:58 AM

Hand 1:

I understand your reasoning for your play in this hand. However anyone with bottom or middle pair, or a gut-shot draw will still be getting decent odds to call your flop bet. Also you may already be drawing thin against someone with Ax.

So I would check the flop, and wait for the turn to bet (depending on the other players actions), when you would no longer be giving players with weak draws profitable odds to call.

Given the passivity of the other players in this hand, I think that you were correct to bet both the turn and river. You bet the turn, (because as you thought for the flop) you dont want to give a free card to drawing hands to beat you. If you are raised on the turn, folding to a passive player would be sensible.

You bet the river for value, and should probably call a raise, because the pot will have become to big to fold to a possible bluff.

Hand 2:

When players bet or call on flops like these, they often have a pocket pair. However in this hand it is more likely for someone to have paired the single card, because a lot of players like to play any Ax.

Your bet on the flop was fine, because you dont mind being called down by someone with a smaller pocket pair. However you should fold to the raise, because the raiser almost certainly has Ax or trip 3's.

Thats because the flop raiser should consider you (the preflop raiser) to have a range of hands from at least AA-TT and AK or AQ. Therefore it should be unlikely for him to raise unless he had an A or 3 himself.

MATT111 · #6 08-18-2005, 08:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

I understand your reasoning for your play in this hand. However anyone with bottom or middle pair, or a gut-shot draw will still be getting decent odds to call your flop bet. Also you may already be drawing thin against someone with Ax.

So I would check the flop, and wait for the turn to bet (depending on the other players actions), when you would no longer be giving players with weak draws profitable odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you prefer giving a free card to a gutshot.
That`s terrible.

Fantam · #7 08-18-2005, 08:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]

So you prefer giving a free card to a gutshot.
That`s terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately betting the flop wont protect your hand from a gut-shot. Receiving 10:1 the gut-shot will be able to call profitably with implied odds.

Sometimes you cant do anything to protect your hand on the flop, and so it becomes better to wait to see if a blank falls on the turn and bet then, when the double sized turn bet will make it unprofitable for the weak drawing hands to continue.

#8 08-18-2005, 09:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So you prefer giving a free card to a gutshot.
That`s terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately betting the flop wont protect your hand from a gut-shot. Receiving 10:1 the gut-shot will be able to call profitably with implied odds.

Sometimes you cant do anything to protect your hand on the flop, and so it becomes better to wait to see if a blank falls on the turn and bet then, when the double sized turn bet will make it unprofitable for the weak drawing hands to continue.

[/ QUOTE ]

My newbie thoughts on this are: is this really true? It seems to me that most players at this level will have no concept of pot odds, and some will be likely to fold a hand they don't like to any bet at all, but they certainly won't fold if they can stay in for free.

MATT111 · #9 08-18-2005, 09:43 AM

You are right that a gutshot does get correct odds to call here. Nevertheless you are a big favourite against a gutshot and you have to make one pay for drawing. Do you konow what pot equity is? If there is no A out you have a huge edge here that you have to explore.