2 AT hands

closer2313 · #1 07-12-2005, 07:09 PM

I guess I have been having trouble playing this hand due to the fact that I play it too passivly.

Hand 1

BB is a LAA, SB is a rock no read on UTG, CO is a calling station

Preflop: I could of raised here, but Ive been reading about how limping with ATo is a good play because your preflop edge is minimal, while if you hit your hand your edge is greatly increased. Im not sure which is the correct play, so any discussion/advice on limping/raising ATo would be nice to hear.

Flop: I missed and its checked to me. Based on reads I dont think I would knock anyone out except for the SB. I check and try to hit my hand.

Turn: An ace!!! I almost certainly have the best hand. The LAA bets, Im sure I have him beat, why didn't I raise? Because im an idiot. I should have raised the turn.

River. Another blank. LAA bets again, I just call. That was stupid. I need to raise here again.

I know overall I missed 2 raises on the turn/river. Im not sure about the preflop play though.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (5.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Hand 2

No real reads on either players.

Preflop: I know SSH advocated just limping in EP with ATs. Do you guys find this to be the best play?

Flop: I hit my ace, there is no one to check raise. Im not going to give a free card, so I just bet out.

Turn: Same as flop, no one to check raise, I have to bet out.

River: I bet out, then the BB check raises, I obviously have to call just one bet back to me.

The main question is how to play this hand preflop. Raise or Call, what are the advantages to each. Also, I feel that I need to call that bet on the river, but it obviously looks like he slowplayed a straight,set, or two pair. Am I good often enough to call this bet?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.40 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, BB calls.

River: (6.20 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, BB raises, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 11.20 BB

Thanks guys!

aK13 · #2 07-12-2005, 07:15 PM

I'm raising preflop in both cases.

In hand 1, I'd try to fold out the blinds, since my ATo is much better against 3 than 5 players. Also, I don't mind playing against a LAA and LPP with a hand like ATo.

Given your play/read, you really need to raise the turn. You most certainly have the best hand, as AK, AQ, AJ would surely raise preflop (LAA).

silkyslim · #3 07-12-2005, 07:22 PM

1) Raise pf, then bet out again on the flop with an over and backdoor str8 and flush draws. You probably would get to lead the turn and river then.
2)I raise this pf too b/c its sooted, but I may be alone. After that you played it well.

GTSamIAm · #4 07-12-2005, 07:31 PM

I like how you played both hands. When you say you wanted raise on the turn in the first hand, why do you want to? It's a small pot, and you're driving out anyone you have beat. You'll get 3-bet by villain if he beats you. Just call it down. You want him to bet a weaker hand twice. Second hand is standard. Nothing to worry about.

LoaferGee12 · #5 07-12-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like how you played both hands. When you say you wanted raise on the turn in the first hand, why do you want to? It's a small pot, and you're driving out anyone you have beat. You'll get 3-bet by villain if he beats you. Just call it down. You want him to bet a weaker hand twice. Second hand is standard. Nothing to worry about.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 1, most of the time you will have both of them beat. The LAA will often have A-rag here and the other with some sort of draw or weak pair. Raising on the turn will extract 1 extra bet out of the LAA (he will call you down if he has a weak ace) and will charge the most for the draw (or pair) of UTG+1.

Raza · #6 07-12-2005, 08:15 PM

Hand 1: Raising or calling preflop is close I think, probably depends on the blinds. If they are tight, I would go ahead and try to fold them out. I would raise the turn because you have a lot of equity and BB will call you down with his A rag or other trash, UTG will probably call for 1 more bet on the turn as well.

Hand 2: Looks fine.

toddw8 · #7 07-13-2005, 02:38 AM

Hand 1:

Preflop-You need to raise this on the button with only two limpers.

Flop-You have an overcard, a backdoor flush draw and two backdoor straight draws. I bet this with the intention of grabbing a free card if the turn misses.

Turn-This is the best card in the deck for you! Raise!

River-Raise Again!

Hand 2:

Preflop-IIRC, SSH advocates raising this hand from early position in "loose games" and limping in "tight" games. It seems like this is more of a "3-5 see the flop" than 6-8 so the limp is okay for me.

The rest of the hand looks fine to me. You should definitely call the raise on the river getting 10:1

aK13 · #8 07-13-2005, 03:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like how you played both hands. When you say you wanted raise on the turn in the first hand, why do you want to? It's a small pot, and you're driving out anyone you have beat. You'll get 3-bet by villain if he beats you. Just call it down. You want him to bet a weaker hand twice. Second hand is standard. Nothing to worry about.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. A raise on the turn is trapping the player in the middle.

2. Against a LAA, a 3bet doesn't mean we are beat.

3. If we raise, many weaker hands are calling a river bet. (weaker aces are not folding, or even a weird J)

arsixsixwy · #9 07-13-2005, 03:59 AM

Hand 1:

Preflop: I like to play ATo against as few opponents as I can, personally, and, considering the junk these guys tend to play (as per your reads), you've gotta be winning more than your sure here, so a raise is for value. Also, if the SB (rock) enters the pot for a raise, it makes it easier not to get married to a pair of aces, should you get them.

Flop: Against 5 players, checking behind is probably best. Even if we (generously) give you 4 outs for pairing anything, you still won't win (about 17% of the time) more than your share (20%) here.

Turn: Come on, man, you have to raise this. This guy doesn't necessarily even have an ace. I could think of a million hands he bets in this same position: any pocket pair, ace-junk (potentially including two-paired ace-junk), jack-junk, king-high. Calling is horrible. If you get 3-bet, I'd probably call down with a safe-ish river card (I think the 5c can be considered "safe" here).

River: Given your turn play, you have to raise here, especially considering UTG+1 folded. The BB may think you were on a diamond draw and is trying to bluff you out; or he may be betting a 4; or a 2; or a jack; or a weak ace; or any two cards.

Hand 2:

Preflop: I tend to open-raise with ATs simply because in my micro-limit experience (about 12,000 hands), it's just so much better than a lot of the junk people at this level play. I don't think calling in UTG+1 position is by any means terrible, though.

Flop/Turn: I play it the same. Nobody's giving you any reason to believe you're behind.

River: The dreaded river check/raise. I've found, so far, that these are rarely (and I mean rarely) bluffs. That said, I still think you have to call him (I probably would, reluctantly), thanks somewhat to MP3's river contribution. Winning once in ten tries here is probably possible, though I'm not prepared to say that you'd be winning once in eight or nine.

Eeegah · #10 07-13-2005, 04:28 AM

(grunching)

Hand 1:

Preflop: ATo is on the very low end of what SSHE recommends a raise with in late position; it probably makes little difference EV-wise if you do or not.

Flop: The pot is still small, so betting here will likely get at least the blinds to fold; that's worth a bet to me in case a T falls on the turn followed by an overcard. I'm folding to a checkraise.
Turn: yup, raise it up. If you're reraised I suspect he can beat top pair but I think I'd still call down in case he's overplaying A9 or something.
River: Fine.

Hand 2:

Preflop: Limping is fine.
Flop: Scary, but I'd still bet.
Turn: Fine
River: Donk checkraise, woo hoo! That's way too far to go to slowplay a flopped straight; I'm guessing 77 or two pair. I don't think you're good 1 time in 10 to call this, but others will likely disagree.