Sometimes Results Are Hard To Divorce

[Rick Nebiolo]

Unknown guy in a decent 20/40 has played about two orbits without involvement so I’ll call him “default tightish” (DT). He is a non-regular leaving soon for the fall tournament so I’m not worrying about setting him up for future moves.

DT open raises on the button. The SB folds and I hold Ac7s in the BB. Against a DT type player I’ll often reraise (especially if they aren’t that tenacious) but I just call. Who feels strongly about a reraise here?

The flop comes As 9d 3d. DT doesn’t have reaching tells. I check with the intention of checkraising, but DT checks behind. Mistake?

The turn comes 7c. I decide that an open raiser will rarely check an ace high flop twice so I check again with the intention of checkraising. He checks behind again. Darn! Mistake or just a bad outcome?

The river comes some small diamond. I bet and DT calls – finally I’m going to win a bet this hand. He shows Kd 2d for second nut flush!

For a minute I felt a bit foolish. I give him two free cards and he gets there [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img].

Then I think what I should have lost. Perhaps one more small bet before the flop. Next, three more small bets on the flop (I’d assume a lone pre flop aggressor with a draw would bet the flop, and make it three bets after my checkraise (which I call head up against DT)).

Now convert to 2.5 big bets for the turn and river analysis. When the turn comes a seven I should get the checkraise in half the time (I’d say a typical DT often bets the turn head up with a draw, especially given he was last aggressor on the flop. Add another big bet in my imaginary repeat of the hand.

I should lose two bets on the river (I bet and call a raise – maybe mike l. would lose more [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ). Now I realize I should have lost 5.5 big bets this hand – instead I lost only two.

I made some debatable plays on this hand, but DT butchered it (assuming thoughtful, reasonably aggressive play where he can’t see my cards).

In a long ago post I started to use the term “divorce results” when attempting to objectively analyze one’s play. But “results” can be hard to divorce in the short term. This hand I felt foolish giving the free cards, thought about it more, then realized I should have lost a lot more, then thought about it more and realized I still may have made some mistakes. That’s a good divorce [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

~ Rick

[mike l.]

"DT open raises on the button. The SB folds and I hold Ac7s in the BB."

fold.

[mike l.]

"DT butchered it"

he did? he probably put you on an A and enjoyed watching you squirm while he drew for free.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Have you ever folded ace medium offsuit head up in the big blind against a tightish open raiser? I've folded ace baby offsuit against a button open raising tough rock, but never ace medium offsuit.

Why do you think folding is right?

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
"DT butchered it"

he did? he probably put you on an A and enjoyed watching you squirm while he drew for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I squirm but maybe I need a video camera check. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

The range of hands I call BTF with (but check fold to a bet with this flop) is fairly high e.g., very small pairs (although sometimes I bet the flop against this type of player), Kx suited, medium suited connectors, two paints not including an ace, maybe a few others. How can he put me so easily on an ace?

~ Rick

[Nate tha' Great]

Rick,

Is it possible that he had some sort of tell on you that indicated you were planning on check-raising? This is one of those things that I'm slightly paranoid about.

Anyway, absent such knowledge, his check on the flop is obviously bad. But I've *sometimes* seen this play used by opponents to good effect, particularly if they have generally been very aggressive. The flop check is confusing enough that it very often nets them *two* free cards. I've sometimes found myself checking the turn in this spot with an okay made hand like middle pair, figuring that the opponent either has nothing or something very strong, and I'm best off checking and calling either way. Lo and behold, my opponent will wind up taking another free card, and beating me some percentage of time on the river. Mind you, I think the check-and-call in that spot is usually correct; my opponent has penalized himself by sacrificing his folding equity on the flop and the free card is his reward if he chooses to take it.

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible that he had some sort of tell on you that indicated you were planning on check-raising? This is one of those things that I'm slightly paranoid about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anythings possible but this guy was unknown and only played with me two orbits (and I wasn't involved in pots either) so a tell is unlikely, although now that I play more NL I'm more worried about giving off tells.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, absent such knowledge, his check on the flop is obviously bad. But I've *sometimes* seen this play used by opponents to good effect, particularly if they have generally been very aggressive. The flop check is confusing enough that it very often nets them *two* free cards. I've sometimes found myself checking the turn in this spot with an okay made hand like middle pair, figuring that the opponent either has nothing or something very strong, and I'm best off checking and calling either way. Lo and behold, my opponent will wind up taking another free card, and beating me some percentage of time on the river. Mind you, I think the check-and-call in that spot is usually correct; my opponent has penalized himself by sacrificing his folding equity on the flop and the free card is his reward if he chooses to take it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

~ Rick

[mike l.]

"Have you ever folded ace medium offsuit head up in the big blind against a tightish open raiser? I've folded ace baby offsuit against a button open raising tough rock, but never ace medium offsuit."

yes ive folded things like AT and stuff before.

"Why do you think folding is right?"

because you wont play it well postflop and neither would i. we are intermediate players rick and against players as good as us or better who have position we will suck eggs and miss bets and pay off and all that stuff.

my second choice would be to reraise.

[mike l.]

"The range of hands I call BTF with (but check fold to a bet with this flop) is fairly high e.g., very small pairs (although sometimes I bet the flop against this type of player), Kx suited, medium suited connectors, two paints not including an ace, maybe a few others. How can he put me so easily on an ace?"

youre right on this one trust me and everyone here will say fine. because i have mental problems i have to force fold my blind super mega way too much. but this is not about me it's about you. you do good. good hand. nevermind.

[bobgreen]

Re preflop: I would call with A7o even if I wasn't confident that I lose less than 1sb playing it. There aren't too many starting cards better, headsup, than A7o. If you cannot call with that, you can hardly ever call. And that seems like a bad thing.

Re DT putting you on an ace: A big portion of opponents' hands that I see that were Big Blind Defenses, turn out to include an ace. I would have bet in DT's case, but I would have been especially wary of the ace.

Re divorcing results: You did not play the line which maximizes long-term EV. But you cannot play the same way every time. Wouldn't it be sweet if the times we vary our play we come out ahead?