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#11
06-10-2005, 10:26 PM
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Re: Baseball Ruling. I\'m calling for Gary Cohen\'s resignation on 660a
[ QUOTE ]
No, a force play is the first out. For example, lets say you got a guy on first and one out. The hitter hits a ground ball to 3rd and he throws out the runner at 2nd but doesn't get the guy out at 1st. The runner at 1st was forced out. You can't assume the 2nd out. You can only assume the 1st out. [/ QUOTE ] I edited my 1st reply to you. I think our discrepency is that I believe that a runner not tagging up is considered a force play while you are saying that it is not. I could have sworn that I am correct here, I am looking at the rules on MLB.com but they are useless... can anyone point me to a rulebook where it says that a player failing to tag is not a force out? 
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#13
06-10-2005, 10:28 PM
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Re: Baseball Ruling. I\'m calling for Gary Cohen\'s resignation on 660a
Not only is Matt Williams right, but as a Mets fan you may recall that this issue came up on a Sunday night Mets-Yankees game a few years ago. The winning run (Mets) in the bottom of the 9th scored on a sac fly and the runner on 1st (Brian McRae?) was screwing around and there was an argument as to whether he had been "doubled off" first. The whole argument wound up boiling down to whether the run from 3rd scored before the runner was "doubled off", and since it was clear that the run scored before any out at first, the Mets won.
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#14
06-10-2005, 10:28 PM
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Re: Baseball Ruling. I\'m calling for Gary Cohen\'s resignation on 660a
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] No, a force play is the first out. For example, lets say you got a guy on first and one out. The hitter hits a ground ball to 3rd and he throws out the runner at 2nd but doesn't get the guy out at 1st. The runner at 1st was forced out. You can't assume the 2nd out. You can only assume the 1st out. [/ QUOTE ] I edited my 1st reply to you. I think our discrepency is that I believe that a runner not tagging up is considered a force play while you are saying that it is not. I could have sworn that I am correct here, I am looking at the rules on MLB.com but they are useless... can anyone point me to a rulebook where it says that a player failing to tag is not a force out? [/ QUOTE ] I tried reading it one time. It's almost more confusing than helpful. Good Luck!
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#15
06-10-2005, 10:48 PM
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Re: Baseball Ruling. I\'m calling for Gary Cohen\'s resignation on 660a
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Cohen is right. When the LF made the catch, it was the 2nd out of the inning. The out at 2nd would not be a force play, it would have been the 3rd out of the inning. If Castro touches home before the 3rd out is made, the run counts. If he touches home after the 3rd out, it doesn't matter because the inning is over. Good explanation, you have semi redeemed yourself. [/ QUOTE ] This is wrong... right? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] If it is a force play then it doesn't matter if Castro has already crossed the plate because force outs take precident and thus the run would not score. Your explaniation is the one that Cohen was making, but that I believe is wrong. [/ QUOTE ] No, a force play is the first out. For example, lets say you got a guy on first and one out. The hitter hits a ground ball to 3rd and he throws out the runner at 2nd but doesn't get the guy out at 1st. The runner at 1st was forced out. You can't assume the 2nd out. You can only assume the 1st out. [/ QUOTE ] Whoops! I messed up here. I just described a fielder's choice. I should have said if the 3rd basemen CATCHES the ball and then throws to 1st before the runner can get back, it would be a force play.
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#16
06-10-2005, 10:50 PM
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I AM WRONG
I have my foot squarely in my mouth...
Thanks for telling me that I was wrong. Gary Cohen does suck but he was right on this one... I will save my calls in to the fan for another day... here is the rule from MLB.com [ QUOTE ] A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner. Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the "force" situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score. Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire's judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts. [/ QUOTE ] Where the quote is from on MLB.com
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#17
06-10-2005, 11:11 PM
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Re: I AM WRONG
Yes, as you discovered, what you described is not a force play. Technically it is an APPEAL play. By throwing the ball to second base, they are appealing that the runner left the bag before the ball was caught. If the run scored before the appeal, the run counts.
Here's a rule that seemed to be on every umpire certification test that I'd taken when I umpired Little League years back: Same situation as the OP described. However, instead of catching the ball, the outfielder has it bounce off his glove and then juggles it for awhile before finally catching it. The runner had tagged up and run to third when he saw the ball entering the outfielder's glove the first time, but had left the base before the outfielder had control of the ball. The outfielder throws the ball to second base and an appeal is made at second base that the runner had not tagged up properly. What is the proper call here?
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#19
06-10-2005, 11:20 PM
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Re: I AM WRONG
[ QUOTE ]
Same situation as the OP described. However, instead of catching the ball, the outfielder has it bounce off his glove and then juggles it for awhile before finally catching it. The runner had tagged up and run to third when he saw the ball entering the outfielder's glove the first time, but had left the base before the outfielder had control of the ball. The outfielder throws the ball to second base and an appeal is made at second base that the runner had not tagged up properly. What is the proper call here? [/ QUOTE ] I believe it is the same as a catch. That prevents guys from intentionally bouncing the ball out of the glove and juggling it in his hand or something. This is similar to why there is an infield fly rule, to prevent the infielder from just letting a popup drop and getting an easy DP.
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