How much do you stick to the preflop guide? - Page 2

Russ McGinley · #11 09-07-2005, 08:15 PM

You should not be doing a lot of preflop coldcalling to begin with, much less with a hand like KQo where you will routinely find yourself totally dominated by AA-QQ, AK, AQ, then go on to flop top pair and lose several BBs unnecessarily. I don't even like calling single raises with KQo.

crownjules · #12 09-07-2005, 08:35 PM

The guidelines are just that, guidelines. They form a base framework of what sort of hands you can raise given a generally lose or generally tight table. The hand chart is good for beginners who may not fully understand the strengths and weaknesses of various hands. For instance, when I was just starting, I thought KJo was a great hand. I didn't understand that in EP it's bad because someone could have me dominated when I'm OOP.

But you definitely want to get away from it when you can. Take the above example I gave. If an UTG LAG raises and you're UTG+1 with KJo, you could 3-bet to isolate the LAG with what just may be a much better hand than he holds. Clearly the hand chart states that KJo is not worth playing in EP, let alone 3-betting.

So, in closing, the hand charts are good for accustomizing a beginner. But once a person learns and fully understands the why's behind those raises, they can look to expand their raising standards given different situations that are not laid out so clearly for them.

Fryguy · #13 09-07-2005, 09:38 PM

I found that over a few thousand hands playing the guide it kind of forms itself to you a bit. I find myself playing a few hands outside of the guidelines out of pure evolution it seems.

My play now is pretty much somewhere in between the tight chart and the loose chart, with a few minor variations. Plus I get bored every now and then [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Eeegah · #14 09-07-2005, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't at all, but I play like an idiot preflop. I play a ring game preflop exactly like I play a tournament final table preflop. The two are not the same, yet I do it. Do not be like me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pax's Guide to Poker:

1) Raise 84o in UTG+1.
2) Get 3-bet by me; call.
3) Flop 2 pair.

Anyway, I don't deviate much from SSHE's tight chart if I'm in a full ring game; oddly enough, whenever I feel like doing so I always seem to have to fold to a raise ahead anyway. In fact, the times when I do deviate work to make me even tighter: if it's folded to me in MP2 and I've got some lousy small pocket pair like 22 then I won't hesitate to muck and pick a better fight. I wouldn't call even a single raise with KQo under normal circumstances, however.

davelin · #15 09-07-2005, 10:37 PM

Better than understanding a pre-flop chart is understanding the fundamentals of pre-flop play i.e. why do you limp in certain situations/positions, why do you raise, when do you cold-call, etc.

Paxosmotic · #16 09-07-2005, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't at all, but I play like an idiot preflop. I play a ring game preflop exactly like I play a tournament final table preflop. The two are not the same, yet I do it. Do not be like me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pax's Guide to Poker:

1) Raise 84o in UTG+1.
2) Get 3-bet by me; call.
3) Flop 2 pair.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a good time to debut a post I've been looking to do for a little while. I call this Paxosmotic's Guide to Tilting Eeegah. Here's some highlights from our recent matches.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Paxosmotic is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Paxosmotic raises, Button (Eeegah) 3-bets, 2 folds, Paxosmotic calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Paxosmotic checks, Eeegah bets, Paxosmotic calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Paxosmotic checks, Eeegah bets, Paxosmotic raises, Eeegah calls.

River: (8.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Paxosmotic bets, Eeegah calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Paxosmotic has Qh 6c (two pair, queens and sixes).
Eeegah has Jc Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Paxosmotic wins 10.75 BB. 

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (3 handed) converter

Preflop: Paxosmotic is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Button (Eeegah) raises, 1 fold, Paxosmotic 3-bets, Button (Eeegah) caps, Paxosmotic calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Paxosmotic checks, Eeegah bets, Paxosmotic calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Paxosmotic checks, Eeegah bets, Paxosmotic calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Paxosmotic bets, Eeegah calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Paxosmotic has 9s Kh (flush, ace high).
Eeegah has Jh Jd (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Paxosmotic wins 9.25 BB. 

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (2 handed) converter

Preflop: Paxosmotic is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Paxosmotic posts a blind of $0.50.
BB (Eeegah) raises, Paxosmotic (poster) calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Eeegah bets, Paxosmotic raises, Eeegah 3-bets, Paxosmotic caps, Eeegah calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Eeegah bets, Paxosmotic raises, Eeegah 3-bets, Paxosmotic calls.

River: (12 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Eeegah bets, Paxosmotic raises, Eeegah 3-bets, Paxosmotic caps, Eeegah calls.

Final Pot: 20 BB

Results in white below: 
Paxosmotic has 5c 7s (four of a kind, sevens).
Eeegah has Ks 5s (full house, sevens full of kings).
Outcome: Paxosmotic wins 20 BB. 

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Paxosmotic is MP1 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Paxosmotic raises, 4 folds, SB (Eeegah) calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Eeegah checks, Paxosmotic bets, Eeegah raises, Paxosmotic 3-bets, Eeegah calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Eeegah checks, Paxosmotic bets, Eeegah raises, Paxosmotic 3-bets, Eeegah calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Eeegah checks, Paxosmotic bets, Eeegah raises, Paxosmotic 3-bets, Eeegah calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

Results in white below: 
Paxosmotic has 2s 9h (two pair, nines and twos).
Eeegah has Kc Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Paxosmotic wins 17.50 BB. 

I seriously love this game. I really, really do. What's frightening is that everything except for the 92o is me playing my A game.

hemstock · #17 09-07-2005, 11:00 PM

What did you have here?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero calls, MP3 :#A500AF(paxosmotic)/ raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, paxosmotic raises, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, paxosmotic bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, paxosmotic bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Paxosmotic · #18 09-07-2005, 11:01 PM

You really, really don't want to know.

hemstock · #19 09-07-2005, 11:04 PM

Well you must of had be beat.

Paxosmotic · #20 09-07-2005, 11:06 PM

Hand to god, 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I just want to add for your benefit and anyone reading this thread that I didn't realize you were sitting there until during that hand. My PokerAce display partially covers screennames on Stars tables and the stats almost completely cover avatars. Just don't want you or anyone else thinking I just go around looking for 2+2ers to isolate.

My raising didn't come from having a strong hand, it came from knowing there is absolutely zero hand that is limped there that involves an ace. So as long as low cards kept coming, my foot was staying on the throttle.