Loose Omaha HiLo/8: Raise Preflop or Wait?

[dwjoe]

Playing in a loose LL Omaha HiLo/8... how good does your hand need to be to raise preflop, as opposed to simply calling and seeing how you like the flop?

In this game players rarely fold before seeing the turn card and I'm the only one who folds preflop. Players won't fold to a preflop raise immediately but raising on each round will eventually get them to fold junk on the turn.

I suspect the correct play is to not raise preflop with most good hands but wait until my small preflop edge (hopefully) turns into a large one on the flop and only then come out firing. But with great hands like AhAs2h3s I'm thinking I should raise preflop anyhow.

1) How good should my hand be to raise preflop in a game like this?

2) How good should my hand be to call, considering that I'm playing against random hands.

[beernutz]

Your position is important in this decision too. You probably don't want to raise UTG with AA23 if there's a chance you'll lose players. Now a limp, reraise here is a really sweet play if you get the opportunity. Just my $.02.

[DPCondit]

With AA23ds, I want to get as much money in preflop as possible. I would always raise in late position, maybe just call in early position if I think a raise will knock out customers, if I think they'll call anyways behind me, then pop it. I would tend to just call in early position if a raise would knock out a few loose callers, especially if someone may raise behind me, then I can 3 bet it. I want those people in there paying me off all the way if I get a big piece of the flop. This hand is too beautiful not to want to put more money in preflop. Aces, two nut flush draws, and a fabulous A23 low draw (and the wheel draw which can also win high).


Paired aces (with two big cards) do better against smaller fields. Straight draws, low draws, and flush draws all do well against a large field, (hopefully to the nuts in all of these). Since you need enough bets in the pot to go for your draw, should it materialize on the flop, I would tend to only want to raise these from late position (with several people already in) so as not to lose customers.

Don

[chaos]

If players don't fold to a preflop raise and your opponnents are basically playing any hand dealt to them you can raise with a large number of hands from any position.

Against a random hand, many hands have a large preflop edge. I would be raising with any suited A2, with any A2 hand that also has a 3 or a 4 for counterfeit protection, any 4 cards ten or higher, or any AA hand with at least one suit. If you are getting the whole table to see the flop, you should maximize the size of the pot with your good hands.

Building a big pot early may also pay off in that your opponnets may take their inferior hands further because of the size of the pot.

Of course with this many players the flop is going to hit some of them. So after the flop stick to nut hands and nut draws.

[edfreeze]

Playing in a loose LL Omaha HiLo/8... how good does your hand need to be to raise preflop, as opposed to simply calling and seeing how you like the flop?
In this game players rarely fold before seeing the turn card and I'm the only one who folds preflop. Players won't fold to a preflop raise immediately but raising on each round will eventually get them to fold junk on the turn.
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Throwing in my $.02, and adding to the last point from chaos,
I play in a similar type of game. These players are very beatable simply by being the tightest guy at the table. Play for the nuts (occasionally trying to steal a pot, but you can't easily, because these buggers won't fold) and they will pay you off. Sure it can be boring, because you gotta fold alot, and you want to play, especially in a home game, but over the long run it's the only way to be a winner. Don't worry about them folding everytime you jump in because they think you're a rock, they'll pay you off anyway. Also, on any given night, sure they can get on a rush and leave a winner, but over the long run <font color="black"> </font color> <font color="red"> </font color> you will come out ahead.

Good luck!

edfreeze

[DisRdatMan]

DPCondit,
In your reply...

"Paired aces (with two big cards) do better against smaller fields. Straight draws, low draws, and flush draws all do well against a large field, (hopefully to the nuts in all of these). Since you need enough bets in the pot to go for your draw, should it materialize on the flop, I would tend to only want to raise these from late position (with several people already in) so as not to lose customers."

I'm rather new to Omaha. Can you tell me why big pairs do better against a smaller field?

DisRdatMan

[DPCondit]

Aces are worth much less in Omaha than in hold em, in hold em you should be able to make money with aces against a small field or a large one.

With aces and two big cards, against one or two opponents, you can often win unimproved or with two pair. An early raise can knock out the garbage draws, so that you are up against mainly just really big, or really small cards, against which you are a favorite to make money for high. With a small field, nobody will be getting good odds to go for draws in most cases, as long as you keep the pressure on. Against a large field with garbage hands, more opponents are likely to connect with the flop, and have proper drawing odds to stay in to the river, in this type of game, you need to have trip aces minimum or more likely a full house to win the pot.

Don

[DPCondit]

Should read a set of aces, not trip aces.

Don

[DisRdatMan]

Thank you for your response, DP.

When I first started playing serious poker about five years ago, I started with a casino 1-5 spread limit Stud high game. Even in stud, the admonition was to thin the field when you had high pair, obstensibly to get garbage hands out of the game. I was a beginner, so I employed the art of raising to thin the table. But...I wondered why I wanted garbage out of the game. If I was the favorite, why didn't I want them IN the game, building the pot. Sure they had proper odds, but I suspected that I would win fewer, but much larger pots, because I HAD THE BEST CARDS to begin with. After studying and playing stud and hold'em (and especially Omaha), my gut feel about this is still the same. I don't know why you want garbage to fold.

In Omaha, this gut feel is supported by the fact that EVERY hand is a drawing hand. There is no such thing as a made hand. If you're dealt 2 A's K Q, perhaps some suited, you are drawing for the nut quads, or nut boat. Everyone else is drawing for the nut flush, or straight. Give me a hundred garbage hands drawing for that nut flush. Flop me an ace, and I don't care if any garbage hand is getting pot odds.

I know this goes against popular convention. I stand ready to change my mind. Show me the math. Deal me pocket A's in an omaha game, flop me an A, and show me mathematically why I am not the favorite with whatever number of garbage hands there are. My contention is that the more callers I have, the fewer pots I will win, but the more money I will win over all. Show me where I'm wrong. Seriously, if I'm wrong on this, I've got to know the details.

DisRdatMan

[chaos]

Here is an example of how your set of Aces can not be too good:
Your hand: Ac Ad Kh Qs
Opponent 1: 2c 3d 4h 5c
Opponent 2: 5h 8h 9s 10s
Flop: Ac 6c 7h

You have trip Aces.

Player 1 already has the nut low so you are only playing for the other half of the pot. Any club gives him a flush to beat your trips. Any 3, 4 or 5 gives him a straight.

Player 2 has a wrap around straight draw. Any 4, 5, 8, 9, or 10 gives him a straight. Any heart on the turn gives him a flush draw.

You have the best hand on the flop. But I don't think you are in a very good situation. Most cards in the deck are bad for you with two cards to come.