T9s and the call button

Aaron W. · #1 01-09-2005, 03:01 AM

Sadly, I was starting to zone out by the time this hand came around, so I don't have a good read on MP3. I know that he's a little bit loose agressive preflop, but no postflop read.

I'm not sure if I like the preflop limp. Most pots were 4-5 handed, with lots of those players acting after me, so I tried to sneak in with a medium suited connector (notice that Button cold-called, an indication of the looseness that acts after me).

I don't know what to do on the flop. I can bet and hope he raises to drive out other players, but I can't imagine what other overcards *won't* make me fold against the preflop raiser (A, Q, J). I feel it's highly probable for him to have at least one of those, so if they fall, I'm done with the hand. I think folding to one bet is weak, so that leaves me with check-calling... which I'm not so happy about, either.

I thought about betting the turn, and I think this is the place I should have done it. Bet-fold is probably the move at this point.

On the river, I don't want it to cost two bets, and I know I can't fold this since I've come this far. I called and hoped he overplayed his hand.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls, MP3 raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 bets, Button calls, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Button folds, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Shillx · #2 01-09-2005, 03:07 AM

Fold/raise preflop. Almost always fold at a loose table. I fold the flop as well.

Brad

Vern · #3 01-09-2005, 03:08 AM

The pre-flop limp is close. If the players after you were all loose passive I can accept it. If MP3 is loose passive, I think I can call the flop but would fold the turn. If MP3 is not passive, I fold pre-flop at your table since it doesn't sound like a steal raise will work and I have a non-passive player immediately after me and by open limping I invite being isolated.

Vern

easypete · #4 01-09-2005, 03:16 AM

I would normally fold or raise this pf. It really depends on who's downstream of me.

But since you limped, you need to bet this flop. Betting into the pfr will force the rest of the field to call 2 bets cold (if the pfr raises on the flop). Call the raise on the flop, and call down. If it's 3-bet to you on the flop, then fold.

easypete · #5 01-09-2005, 03:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold the flop as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie) · #6 01-09-2005, 03:30 AM

I would fold this preflop. Given that you limped, I fold the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because our Hero has a bad case of reverse implied odds here. If he's ahead, and bets, he gets no action. He's pretty much dead to any K, or T with a better kicker, and he has no redraws. Also, the board is draw heavy. Pretty easy flop fold.

Shillx · #7 01-09-2005, 03:32 AM

Well I don't like betting into him since he will probably raise a lot of different hands that we are both ahead and behind. I don't like check/raising the flop with this hand either.

If the villian has us beat, we are either drawing slim or dead while the villian has tons of outs against us if we are ahead. The pair on board really hurts us if he has a king or something like AA/QQ/JJ. If he has AQ/AJ he has 10 outs against us.

Brad

easypete · #8 01-09-2005, 03:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well I don't like betting into him since he will probably raise a lot of different hands that we are both ahead and behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am having a little trouble with this line of thinking. You have hit part of this board. Yes, it's draw heavy, but to think that there is a K out there is just crazy talk. Since 2 Kings hit the flop, MP3 is much more likely to have a hand like AQo than anything w/ a King in it. You can be ahead here.

And yes, you do want MP3 to raise here. You need to clean up the field a little bit. I'm betting into him, hoping that he will raise this. If there are some cold-calls, beware, but you can get this heads-up in a lot of cases with this board. This will increase your chances of winning. Getting someone to fold a lone J will prevent a river J from hurting you.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like check/raising the flop with this hand either.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r sucks here. you only c/r this situation to build a pot. If you have a 4-flush, then you may consider it, but you don't.... You have 2-pr weak kicker... Some action needs to take place.

You are in the pot, and it's a decent size. You want to win this pot.

[ QUOTE ]
If the villian has us beat, we are either drawing slim or dead while the villian has tons of outs against us if we are ahead. The pair on board really hurts us if he has a king or something like AA/QQ/JJ. If he has AQ/AJ he has 10 outs against us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Valid. Villain can also have a bunch more hands, depending on his pfr criteria.

If he has 10 outs, you have 37 outs. Go for it.

I think giving up on this flop is a little weak.

Aaron W. · #9 01-09-2005, 12:53 PM

I'm very surprised at the number of people suggesting that I open-raise or fold this with T9s and loose players behind me. This is exactly opposite of what I would expect.

1) Limping in encourages the loose players to play along when I have a drawing hand. (I was expecting 5 hands, but because of the raiser I only got 4. Is 4 not good enough?)
2) Raising may not be effecting in driving out loose players behind me, so I put in two bets with a drawing hand instead of just one.
2.5) 1 and 2 are not contadictory as I can encourage them to play a certain way, but they'll play how they choose in the end.
3) I'm out of position relative to my opponents and the positional disadvantage post flop play harder.

Q: What is the purpose of raising in this spot? Why is folding better than calling?

Shillx · #10 01-09-2005, 02:13 PM

Open limping in MP3 sucks dude. This is raise/fold territory.

Brad