How to play against a chronic Post Flop Min. Better?

[reallybigshoe]

The situation:

NL PP Tourney, 370 entrants, down to last 70 or so, top 40 get paid (It's a rebuy/add-on deal, so the prize pool makes for a decent 6x payday just for finishing in the money if you don't rebuy yourself, which i don't)

Table is seven-handed temporarily. Blinds 300/600
Folds to Villain (14000 chips) in MP, who limps; fold, fold
Hero (10000 chips) is on the button with A-10 off, raises to 2000
-Blinds fold, Villain calls

Pot now 4900

Flop comes QQ8 rainbow

Villain now does his usual thing, a minimum bet into a huge pot

Hero raises to 1800, Villain calls,

Turn no help, Villain makes another min. bet, Hero calls (huge pot odds)

River no help, Villain bets 1500, Hero gets sickeningly weak-tight and folds

Okay, I deserve to be picked apart on this one. But this guy had been doing the same min. bet thing for two hours, often folding to raises but sometimes not, occasionly showing down with A high-- total LP image.

Also, I had busted him earlier when he re-raised in the small blind my 3BB early position bet with KK. I put him all-in and he called with AJ suited (so obviously his game had flaws as well)

Should I have pushed the flop to his min. bet, considering his PF limp and table image suggested Ax, KJ, low pairs, etc? (put some Fold Equity in play)

How do you play against this type of creature?

Since this hand cost me the tourney for all intents and purposes, I would appreciate any construcive criticism in order to avoid spewing chips this massively in the future.

[durron597]

I don't want to be in a big pot against a villian like this. I think I flatcall preflop.

[reallybigshoe]

Then what about the flop?

Raise his min. bet bullshizzle? Call?

Call down to the river?

[nath]

My experience has been that minimum bets mean exactly what they appear to mean - a weak player with a weak hand or a draw is trying to show it down as cheaply as possible.

Unless I decide I have nothing and want to get out, I pop him on the flop. I pop him again on the turn-- enough to make it clear that he can't get the cards he wants cheap.

It's also important to know what the turn and river are in this case. Maybe they didn't help you but they helped him. A small-mid PP wouldn't be surprising here; I see that a lot, or possibly a weak 8 (a bad player could have A-8 or even 9-8 here).

The alternative line is, since you don't have anything yet, calling the flop and turn for the huge pot odds. The problem is that this leaves you rather stranded on the end. If he comes out with a larger bet, you have no idea where you are.

If you're going to raise this flop it has to be more than 1800. He's getting better than 6-to-1 on that call. You have to make him pay for playing that way or not play the hand.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't want to be in a big pot against a villian like this. I think I flatcall preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good idea. I want a strong hand if I'm playing against an opponent who does this, because I'm going to pound on him with hit. ATo while normally pretty nice on the button isn't as good when you know you'll be in with a guy who plays this way-- because if you miss (and sometimes even when you hit) you're still out on an island in terms of knowing if your hand is good.

[reallybigshoe]

[ QUOTE ]
My experience has been that minimum bets mean exactly what they appear to mean - a weak player with a weak hand or a draw is trying to show it down as cheaply as possible.

Unless I decide I have nothing and want to get out, I pop him on the flop. I pop him again on the turn-- enough to make it clear that he can't get the cards he wants cheap.

It's also important to know what the turn and river are in this case. Maybe they didn't help you but they helped him. A small-mid PP wouldn't be surprising here; I see that a lot, or possibly a weak 8 (a bad player could have A-8 or even 9-8 here).

The alternative line is, since you don't have anything yet, calling the flop and turn for the huge pot odds. The problem is that this leaves you rather stranded on the end. If he comes out with a larger bet, you have no idea where you are.

If you're going to raise this flop it has to be more than 1800. He's getting better than 6-to-1 on that call. You have to make him pay for playing that way or not play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So a bigger PF raise, or limp in?

But either way, I have a decision on the flop that I can't get away from-- and his play prevents me from defining his hand. I think continuing to spew chips to a player like this is bad-- I think I should have pushed all in on the flop if I didn't believe he had the queen or fold right then, because the farther this goes on, and the more chips in the middle, the less likely he is to lay down anything to say a turn push or river push (since he has me covered in chips). i think my fold equity decreases drastically on the turn and the river, since it gives him more chances to hit a pair and justify a call.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]

So a bigger PF raise, or limp in?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. A small raise is very bad against this type of player unless you have the nuts and want to keep him in.

[ QUOTE ]

But either way, I have a decision on the flop that I can't get away from-- and his play prevents me from defining his hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Absent any information, your best strategy is usually to turn your brain off and just value bet your hand. (And you have very little value here post-flop.)

[ QUOTE ]

I think continuing to spew chips to a player like this is bad-- I think I should have pushed all in on the flop if I didn't believe he had the queen or fold right then, because the farther this goes on, and the more chips in the middle, the less likely he is to lay down anything to say a turn push or river push (since he has me covered in chips). i think my fold equity decreases drastically on the turn and the river, since it gives him more chances to hit a pair and justify a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there are pretty good pot odds to just call this down if you can, but it's not unreasonable to just fold and avoid trapping yourself.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
So a bigger PF raise, or limp in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough call. If you know he's only limping early with solid value, it leans toward a call. If he's doing this with all sorts of garbage, pop him.

[ QUOTE ]
I think continuing to spew chips to a player like this is bad-- I think I should have pushed all in on the flop if I didn't believe he had the queen or fold right then, because the farther this goes on, and the more chips in the middle, the less likely he is to lay down anything to say a turn push or river push (since he has me covered in chips). i think my fold equity decreases drastically on the turn and the river, since it gives him more chances to hit a pair and justify a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your thinking-- although you do have enough chips to have plenty of fold equity on the turn, at least.

Another line I like when I have position on min-betters, where I don't really have anything yet but don't think they do either, is to call their min-bet on the flop then blow them out of the water on the turn after another min-bet. It's risky, but it's good on a flop like this, since your line would make sense if you did hit trip queens.

It all depends on your opponent. Is he the min-min-pot type (flop, turn, and river bets), is he the type to min-bet a low pair or flush draw, garbage, or what?

In this particular situation... I might go with waiting to raise on the turn. I might try to take it on the flop. It's hard to say.

But part of the reason min-betters are such a bitch to play against is because they steal your initiative. The best way to play against them is to take it back.