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  #11  
Old 12-27-2005, 03:35 AM
J.Copperthite J.Copperthite is offline
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

It'd be easy to think this, but given the situation I was the victim of an absolute donkstrike. It was not uncommon for players to be raising/three-betting their lows in this game. I was the only player w/ a six in the hand, and the only way I could've lost the entire pot was for one of two tens to hit on the river. The BB was literally giving his money to me and the other player w/ the nut low by threebetting the turn, but was rescued by the river. I can not see laying this hand down on the turn - no matter what hand someone else may have w/ a six in his hand, he is a dog to make a better full house no matter how you slice it. Assuming his side cards do not include a 4 or 5, he has 9 outs to a better boat, and 2 to 5 if he has an overpair and an overcard w/ his six. I'd never fold in that spot - raising and calling the cap is absolutely +EV.

If I could've seen him having TT in his hand, i'd have called the river obviously [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #12  
Old 12-27-2005, 08:58 AM
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

Preflop:

Fold. This is an awful hand, in every position. The only time I'll play this hand is if its 3 handed, and then Ill raise with it.

Flop:

If you are going to call preflop, you have to raise here. You have a lot of equity, and this is a great spot to make the other playrs call two bets cold (incorrectly) with their draws. This is a dream flop, if you arent going to raise here, I take it you would never raise a flop with 3456?

Turn:

Standard.

River:

I raise his bet 80% of the time and flat call the other 20%. BTW, you have to call the 3-bet, anyone who doesnt is a moron. There is too much in the pot to consider folding.
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  #13  
Old 12-27-2005, 11:14 AM
J.Copperthite J.Copperthite is offline
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:

If you are going to call preflop, you have to raise here. You have a lot of equity, and this is a great spot to make the other playrs call two bets cold (incorrectly) with their draws. This is a dream flop, if you arent going to raise here, I take it you would never raise a flop with 3456?


[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I did not raise was the board was very draw-heavy and my hand is vulnerable to a few specific cards. If the flush card comes on the turn, chances are I am folding on the turn, so why raise the flop, get involved, only to see my hand clearly beaten if I dime rolls off on the turn. Considering this, calling and waiting until the expensive street to raise is the right play. If a safe card comes (and it did - it gave me top boat), then I can come into action on the turn.

Regarding equity on the flop, according to cardplayer.com's omaha odds calculator, my hand has 34% equity on this flop, while A-9-4-2 has 48.9% and A-K-T-T (who has the flush draw) has 16.8% equity. I wouldn't call 34% equity high in a three-way pot - its about break-even. Thats just how I play though - i'd rather make 'em pay on the expensive street (in this case my equity jumps to 50% on the turn, while A-9-4-2 has 47.2% and A-K-T-T has 2.8%)

Obviously, if it was a rainbow flop, of course i'd have raised the flop - I would want to get the backdoor flush draws and other such weak draws to fold. In Omaha, rarely do you raise the nut straight on the flop when the board is two-suited. Why get heavily involved in a hand on the flop if the turn card may cause you to be drawing to four outs and having to call many bets?
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  #14  
Old 12-27-2005, 11:57 AM
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

While your rationale is not crazy, it is the "poster child" for why to never play 3-4-5-6 in a full ring game. Look at what you're saying. You hit almost an ideal flop, yet you feel that you've still got a lot of work to do and don't feel comfortable raising the flop. Why play the hand then? To hope for 2-5-6 rainbow? So then you can still play for half? I don't get it, even with your stated table reads. Good luck though, I hope it works out for you.
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  #15  
Old 12-27-2005, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

I play this type of hand a lot, so I don't see preflop as a bad call. The only mistake I see is not raising the flop. You flopped a vulnerable nut str8, and notice that BB got to stay in for one SB? If your going to play a mediocre hand, you have to jam the pot when it hits. What were your thoughts for just calling? BB may not have folded, but when players make mistakes like that, make their mistakes expensive.
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  #16  
Old 12-27-2005, 12:39 PM
J.Copperthite J.Copperthite is offline
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

[ QUOTE ]
You hit almost an ideal flop, yet you feel that you've still got a lot of work to do and don't feel comfortable raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has nothing to do with comfort - I know the odds are against the nut straight being the nuts by the river when the flop is two-suited. I almost never raise the nut straight on a two-suited board on the flop. I wait for the turn to throw a nice card at me and then I get aggressive. I've found this increases my winrate significantly (haven't had a losing month since March of this year), which is hanging in the 4.5 BB/hr. range.
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  #17  
Old 12-27-2005, 12:56 PM
kitaristi0 kitaristi0 is offline
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

[ QUOTE ]
I play this type of hand a lot, so I don't see preflop as a bad call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think playing this hand PF is a leak.
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  #18  
Old 12-27-2005, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play this type of hand a lot, so I don't see preflop as a bad call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think playing this hand PF is a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respectfully disagree. With three cards to the wheel, I believe you should enter almost every unraised pot when you have position. (Speaking LO8 here) Hero had this scenario. This also has the advantage of disguising your 'A2 and better' limps. Obviously, if the table is tight you may want to be cautious, but here Hero had the odds.

This can turn into a leak if you can't play post-flop and chase the wrong end of the str8 or low flushes too far.
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  #19  
Old 12-27-2005, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I did not raise was the board was very draw-heavy and my hand is vulnerable to a few specific cards

[/ QUOTE ]

This is your dream flop. If your hand is vunerable and you dont feel like raising, then give me a flop where this isnt the case. Anytime you enter a pot with 3456 and manage to hit, the board will be draw heavy and you will be playing for 1/2 the pot. I dont know, maybe you like getting yourself in terrible situations with hands that are absolute crap.

Your hand selecton in LO8 should consist of hands that can become the nuts or close to it. 3456s can make a baby flush, a weak low, a vunerable straight, or just two pair. This might be fine in a 3 or 4 handed game, but not here.
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  #20  
Old 12-27-2005, 10:07 PM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: 1/2 PS LO8 hand - is this hand played properly?

J.Copperthite:I'm not sure why you posted this hand.If you did it to try to improve your game,take a moment to think about what they're telling you about the need to raise this flop. Good luck to you. Ben
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