KK early in Super Monday

[TheTimeIsUp]

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i think you need to raise more preflop (t80-100).

why? don't I *want* action here?

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That's pretty awful. This is saying that you are afraid of playing pots postflop.

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huh?

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Sure. Raising this much could work. However, it completely reaks of a monster hand. Why make your hands stick out like that? Poker is about folding hands when you think you have the worst of it, and that is a risk you have to take when playing AA and KK.

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so your disagreeing with the guy who suggested i raise 5xBB and not me being confused by that. right?

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5bb is the largest I would ever raise with this, and I will rarely ever do that. Saying it is right to raise 100 in this situation is awful.

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you would not raise more than 5x BB with KK? So you're inviting small pocket pairs to play against you?

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Not realistly. Unless they are all world class players, I am sure they have quite different range of calling hands. If some of these hit, I double up.

However, I am confidenet I can outplay my opponent postflop, and fold if he hits his set. But, that's just me.

[jwvdcw]

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This is how to exploit a certain type of bad player (opening to 150), but it is by far not the right choice here game theory wise. You are saying if you are in the WSOP ME level 1 and u get AA, you gotta open the pot to deny everyone odds to flop a set including implied odds? Yeah, ok.

-Jason

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I've never played in the WSOP so I can't comment on the skill level of players nor the blind structure. However, at a tournament such as Party's Super Monday, I would definitely play it like this.

My goal is to double up and avoid losing my entire stack. Putting in a small raise with a monster early on does the exact opposite of this- it makes it so that others can get away from the hand postflop, and it invites calls from hands that can and will cripple me.

[mlagoo]

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Blinds 10/20

T1070

I raise UTG1 with black KK to 55 and get called by guy with T1665 two to my left. All else fold

No reads, other than table had not been overly loose, more on tighter side.

flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet T150, and get raised T350

Pot is now 640 and I have 865 left. Whats my plan?

I am a MTT newb, so please bear with me.

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Results?

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i pushed and lost to 99 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

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gee what a surprise...a small pocket pair- the exact type of hand I've been saying all along will bust you out when you only raise small with KK or AA.

Note: sarcasm not intended to antagonize you(sorry about your loss)...its directed at those disagreeing here.

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if you dont want 99 to come along for a preflop raise when you have KK, you are playing far too risk averse, imo. different strokes different folks though, i guess.

[jwvdcw]

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i think you need to raise more preflop (t80-100).

why? don't I *want* action here?

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That's pretty awful. This is saying that you are afraid of playing pots postflop.

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huh?

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Sure. Raising this much could work. However, it completely reaks of a monster hand. Why make your hands stick out like that? Poker is about folding hands when you think you have the worst of it, and that is a risk you have to take when playing AA and KK.

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so your disagreeing with the guy who suggested i raise 5xBB and not me being confused by that. right?

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5bb is the largest I would ever raise with this, and I will rarely ever do that. Saying it is right to raise 100 in this situation is awful.

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you would not raise more than 5x BB with KK? So you're inviting small pocket pairs to play against you?

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Not realistly. Unless they are all world class players, I am sure they have quite different range of calling hands. If some of these hit, I double up.

However, I am confidenet I can outplay my opponent postflop, and fold if he hits his set. But, that's just me.

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If you're confident that you can fold if he hits his set, then I guess you're just a better player than me, so do what you want. However, I have a real hard time believing that you can get away from that there.

[Kirkrrr]

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In the beginning, I'm a lot more concerned with getting a stack to work with than surviving into the second hour so I can survive into the third, and so on.

Kirk


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unless you're a pro who has an opportunity to make big money playing in ring games should you bust out early, I totally disagree.

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I'm not a pro, I do have plentiful opportunities to make good money in side games, but how is that even relevant to my argument? If surviving with an average stack from one hour into next is your goal, our approaches to the game differ... radically. And I think mine is better.

Kirk

[woodguy]

PF raise is good, cont-bet is good as a slight overbet can look like missed AK.

I have no problem getting it all in here.

This early in a Super, you can often have donks playing 77 this way figuring you for missed AK. I can see him playing a Q or J similarly as well and the minish raise is testing your cont bet.

Its a pretty draw heavy board so I'm probably pushing here, but calling and c/r all in on the turn may work too, but I really don't want to see around 17 cards come off on the turn, and I can have 1500 early which lets me splash around a lot in LP.

I proceed which ever way you like best assuming you are ahead.

Regards,
Woodguy

[ilikeaces]

I was the villain in this hand.

[Jason Strasser]

Your way of playing is easy. You raise to 150, if some fish calls and flops a set, well then he's a fish and you can write one that off because you made the correct play preflop and he made a clear mistake.

However, your way is not the best. You should be concerned with things like raising to a standard opening to protect the value of your hands. You want worse hands to call like lower pairs, middle pairs, and AJ AQ KT blah blah etc. So, occasionally some fish makes a preflop mistake and you bone him from behind and take his stack. But most of the time you are playing so that players around you, even the most retarded ones in the world, can play correctly.

Sure, I allow smaller pairs to correctly call and play the flop, and if I had my choice I'd want hands that have lots of implied odds like a low pair, I'd choose for them to fold.

But the idea is that if I raise enough with all sorts of hands, people are going to be playing very poorly if they call with lower pairs trying to stack me off with a set, because most of the time I'll have a hand that can't double them up. This, in turn, allows me to get paid off more when people realize that I am active, and when I standard raise with KK or whatever I'll get more action from hands that can double me up.

Also, JJ is saying he is getting away when people flop sets often. Well, I'm not. But again, all the action I get from having a disguised hand against second best hands more than makes up for the times someone flops a set on a 279 board with 2 hearts and I double them up because I didn't raise to 10bb preflop.

-Jason

[jwvdcw]

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Blinds 10/20

T1070

I raise UTG1 with black KK to 55 and get called by guy with T1665 two to my left. All else fold

No reads, other than table had not been overly loose, more on tighter side.

flop is 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet T150, and get raised T350

Pot is now 640 and I have 865 left. Whats my plan?

I am a MTT newb, so please bear with me.

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Results?

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i pushed and lost to 99 [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

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gee what a surprise...a small pocket pair- the exact type of hand I've been saying all along will bust you out when you only raise small with KK or AA.

Note: sarcasm not intended to antagonize you(sorry about your loss)...its directed at those disagreeing here.

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if you dont want 99 to come along for a preflop raise when you have KK, you are playing far too risk averse, imo. different strokes different folks though, i guess.

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Ok, lets make a few assumptions(obviously not all are true all the time, but I think that there would be quite a few times when they would all be true):

-If the flop misses both of you, you will win the pot with your first bet.

-If he hits his set and you have an overpair, you will lose your stack(apparently, many here want to argue against this...I play cards full time-I don't say this to brag, just to say that I'm not a terrible player- and I think that 9/10 times I lose my stack here)

-If you both hit sets, you will take his stack.

-If all rags come and you both have overpairs, then about 30% of the time you'll run into a player whose entire stack you can take. The other 70% is too good to let this happen.

You'll notice that I ignore small chip wins, as I don't think they're overly important here.

Under these circumstances, you clearly cannot make such a small raise that it gives a player proper implied odds to draw to his set.

Which part of this do you disagree with?

[jwvdcw]

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In the beginning, I'm a lot more concerned with getting a stack to work with than surviving into the second hour so I can survive into the third, and so on.

Kirk


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unless you're a pro who has an opportunity to make big money playing in ring games should you bust out early, I totally disagree.

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I'm not a pro, I do have plentiful opportunities to make good money in side games, but how is that even relevant to my argument? If surviving with an average stack from one hour into next is your goal, our approaches to the game differ... radically. And I think mine is better.

Kirk

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Ok...totally ignore my qualifer of "if you're a pro and can make great money in side games." I only said that to prevent someone from critisizing my argument on that almost irrelevant point.

Certainly, we could both be successful with different styles. However, I must say that the need to accumulate a big stack early is entirely overrated imho, and my first guess would be to say that you are doing this here.