AJo and 98s: Two turn check behinds vs. LAGs

Nick C · #1 11-07-2005, 07:20 PM

I was at some tables that seemed very aggressive to me this past weekend, and at times I was taking an approach versus the BB that was unusual for me.

I thought I'd check the line here, before I get carried away. (Since the situations in the hands are not the same, though, it's possible the line I took is good in one hand but not the other. Or maybe they're both just bad [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].)

Villain in this hand is 39/19/2.1 after 150 hands:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.20 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5.20 BB

This Villain is 35/8/1.1 after 217 hands:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 5.20 BB

droolie · #2 11-07-2005, 07:33 PM

I like it a lot more in hand 2 than 1. (I love hand 2)

Hand 1: I think I'm betting there and folding to a C/R or taking a free SD. I want him to fold here and give up his 6 clean outs or possibly a low PP.

Mister Z · #3 11-07-2005, 07:45 PM

Hand one reminds me of a hand I posted a little while ago that you replied in actually (I think). The difference here is that this guy is a LAG. However, I don't know if this is enough info to make us believe that villain would make a stab at this river empty-handed often enough to make a call worthwhile. Also, most LAG's would call with Ace-high on a flop like this - I think betting this turn has enough fold equity in it to be profitable, and it will probably get you to a free showdown (which you will probably win pretty often). So you have 3 options

1) betting the turn and checking the river - gains fold equity, gets the S/D cheaply
2)checking the turn, calling the river - May encourage a weaker hand to bluff? not enough on this board or against this opponent IMO
3)check turn, fold river - wins the least, loses the least, would be preferred against passive opponents

2nd Hand:

Hmm - this board makes your turn check-through more effective IMO and would encourage a lot of LAGS to bet their pairs when they might have folded them on the turn. Plus you could very likely be C/R'd here which could be costly. I like the line you took here.

Nick C · #4 11-07-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand one reminds me of a hand I posted a little while ago that you replied in actually (I think). The difference here is that this guy is a LAG. However, I don't know if this is enough info to make us believe that villain would make a stab at this river empty-handed often enough to make a call worthwhile. Also, most LAG's would call with Ace-high on a flop like this - I think betting this turn has enough fold equity in it to be profitable, and it will probably get you to a free showdown (which you will probably win pretty often). So you have 3 options

1) betting the turn and checking the river - gains fold equity, gets the S/D cheaply
2)checking the turn, calling the river - May encourage a weaker hand to bluff? not enough on this board or against this opponent IMO
3)check turn, fold river - wins the least, loses the least, would be preferred against passive opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think I remember the hand you're talking about. I don't remember what I wrote, though [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

On the turn in the AJo hand, I thought there was a decent chance I was ahead. (I'm learning that some players, in response to my auto-bets, will pretty much make an auto-call.) Also, though, my line was influenced partly just by what I'd seen going on around the table in general. There had been bursts of hyper-aggro play with weak hands (such as king-high and low pocket pairs with three overcards on the board) in steal situations. And I knew my opponent was a LAG.

I was worried about getting checkraise-bluffed. (If I did bet, I wasn't even sure I should fold to a checkraise.)

And, FWIW, under the following specific circumstances, I don't want Villain folding a 6 outer on the turn (or a worse ace, which also would effectively have 6 outs on this board, because of the chop potential): (1) Villain will fold to the turn bet, but (2) Villain will bluff whatever two cards he has on the river whether he improves or not.

Carmine · #5 11-07-2005, 09:25 PM

I like them both. Hand #1 I play this way often against an opponent who is the slightest bit aggressive. Hand #2 I admit I would have bet the turn, but like your line much better.

bobbyi · #6 11-07-2005, 10:07 PM

Seems good.

#7 11-07-2005, 10:41 PM

I like hand 2. I want to showdown cheap/induce bluffs.

Hand 1 -- I sometimes like a turn bet and going for the free showdown better, however, in this spot with a 2+ AF he could very easily be trying for a turn c/r. I like the turn bet, free showdown with an AF < 1.5, but here I think you played g00t.

Mister Z · #8 11-08-2005, 03:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand one reminds me of a hand I posted a little while ago that you replied in actually (I think). The difference here is that this guy is a LAG. However, I don't know if this is enough info to make us believe that villain would make a stab at this river empty-handed often enough to make a call worthwhile. Also, most LAG's would call with Ace-high on a flop like this - I think betting this turn has enough fold equity in it to be profitable, and it will probably get you to a free showdown (which you will probably win pretty often). So you have 3 options

1) betting the turn and checking the river - gains fold equity, gets the S/D cheaply
2)checking the turn, calling the river - May encourage a weaker hand to bluff? not enough on this board or against this opponent IMO
3)check turn, fold river - wins the least, loses the least, would be preferred against passive opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think I remember the hand you're talking about. I don't remember what I wrote, though [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

On the turn in the AJo hand, I thought there was a decent chance I was ahead. (I'm learning that some players, in response to my auto-bets, will pretty much make an auto-call.) Also, though, my line was influenced partly just by what I'd seen going on around the table in general. There had been bursts of hyper-aggro play with weak hands (such as king-high and low pocket pairs with three overcards on the board) in steal situations. And I knew my opponent was a LAG.

I was worried about getting checkraise-bluffed. (If I did bet, I wasn't even sure I should fold to a checkraise.)

And, FWIW, under the following specific circumstances, I don't want Villain folding a 6 outer on the turn (or a worse ace, which also would effectively have 6 outs on this board, because of the chop potential): (1) Villain will fold to the turn bet, but (2) Villain will bluff whatever two cards he has on the river whether he improves or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that hand, W. Deranged was going for checking the turn, calling the river. You were sort of torn on whether or not to bet the turn and made a good argument for betting the turn. Now that I look at villain's stats again, an AF of 2.1 is pretty damn high for someone playing 39/19. I think I'm liking the turn check now. Especially when I think of having to call down or fold after being C/R'd on the turn.

BoxLiquid · #9 11-08-2005, 07:21 AM

hand 2 was perfect.

hand 1 I would bet the turn and see what happens. If he C/Rs I would have to get a feel for his playing style to know if he's bluffing or not.

Personally I want him to fold the turn. I hate it when someone with J8 catches his 8 on the river when you have AQ On a board like this. he will bet out the river with his 8 when he catches it and you'll lose every time if he bets because you plan to call every time.

I don't know what would be most +ev. Definetely depends on what kind of player they are.