Lindgren's JJ Hand

[samjjones]

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Any comments on the play of this hand?

Ok, so he smoothcalls an early raise. Almost the whole table comes in. BB puts in a big raise.

Now, I know I can see the BB's cards on TV but doesn't it seem suspicious that an aggressive BB picks up a big hand with so many smoothcallers?

Just thought, it was a real good time to go all in. Chad Brown didn't portray real strength with his call.

Any comments?

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Obviously, I have a lot to learn about tournament poker, because I don't think he played the hand badly at all. MAYBE pushing as the second one in would be okay, but no way can he push with 7 other people limping behind him.

[sekrah]

Pushing as 2nd one in is very bad IMO.. You have a deep stack and you are only going to get called by hands that can beat you and at best a coinflip.

Raising, maybe. But he was clearly looking for a big hit here. J-J just isn't that strong at all. If the flop comes low he can play it strongly.

88, 99, TT, JJ all fall into the same group of good hands that you don't want to go bust on when you are controlling your table. QQ is in a special group all by itself and is the most difficult to play.. KK and AA are the only premiums.

JJ is only marginally better than 9-9, you can now beat 10-10 and A-10 with it. Would you push with 9-9?

[JimHammer]

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I was thinking it was a little strange that he didn't push as well. This was kind of early in the broadcast when he didn't have a lot of chips. He was probably planning on someone reraising and then he would push, but everyone limped to Tran. Once he raised and was called by Brown, the pot may have been too big for a push to get anyone off a hand.

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This isnt a party sng... he had plenty of bb and there is no reason to risk his whole tourt on jj in early pos. what if the raiser has a real hand, or a limper... game over(or a coin flip) he is a skilled playerand knew he could wait.

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This is a big shortcoming of ESPN's coverage. You don't know stack sizes, the size of the blinds, or how much the raise is.

I thought at this point Lindgren was one of the shorter stacks (apparently not). If he had a decent amount of chips, he was probably hoping for a raise behind him. Then he could reraise and hope to isolate one opponent.

Well, he gets the whole table limping in with him and then the raise from Tran. It was probably very hard for him to put anyone on a hand. Brown calls, so who knows what he has, and Lindgren calls as well, not knowing what he's up against with more people to act behind him.

(Last paragraph written with help from Barry G's analysis).

I agree, if he's not on the short stack, there's no reason to push.

[Willy]

Vietnamese courtesy?? Human courtesy perhaps?

[samjjones]

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Pushing as 2nd one in is very bad IMO.. You have a deep stack and you are only going to get called by hands that can beat you and at best a coinflip.

Raising, maybe. But he was clearly looking for a big hit here. J-J just isn't that strong at all. If the flop comes low he can play it strongly.

88, 99, TT, JJ all fall into the same group of good hands that you don't want to go bust on when you are controlling your table. QQ is in a special group all by itself and is the most difficult to play.. KK and AA are the only premiums.

JJ is only marginally better than 9-9, you can now beat 10-10 and A-10 with it. Would you push with 9-9?

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I agree with you completely. I never said that's something that I would do. I try to see the flop as cheaply as possible in that spot. I'm sure many people would agree that JJ's are tough to play.

[TM1212]

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Pushing as 2nd one in is very bad IMO.. You have a deep stack and you are only going to get called by hands that can beat you and at best a coinflip.

Raising, maybe. But he was clearly looking for a big hit here. J-J just isn't that strong at all. If the flop comes low he can play it strongly.

88, 99, TT, JJ all fall into the same group of good hands that you don't want to go bust on when you are controlling your table. QQ is in a special group all by itself and is the most difficult to play.. KK and AA are the only premiums.

JJ is only marginally better than 9-9, you can now beat 10-10 and A-10 with it. Would you push with 9-9?

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exactly. It makes no sense to go allin here. (as stated in pervious post) i just simply cant believe some of the posts on this thread. I feel as if none of them understand deepstack poker nl tourt poker theory. With that many chips a call is ideal, see the flop and play the hand. if he was a bad unskilled player then making this play on the flop makes sense, but eric is a great player with chips... and wants to avoid situations involving possible coin flips, or worse.

[TM1212]

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Thank you for the sarcasm, that's helpful. I like playing carefully too, but there is too much money in the pot to leave it sitting out there like that. He's almost definitely got the best hand, and he's got a lot of fold equity. Does he just magically get heads up by playing safe? No, he has to pick up chips. This is a good spot.

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thats only because you know the hands. You dont always want to get jj heads up, hes got a big enough stack to play the hand out, if he can flop big with a jack hell want all of those people in the pot. ONE LAST TIME ERIC DOESNT WANT A COIN FLIP or worse... just cause your use to seeing amateurs make this play with jj on tv all the time doesn’t make it right for eric. (or right at all)

[TM1212]

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I was thinking it was a little strange that he didn't push as well. This was kind of early in the broadcast when he didn't have a lot of chips. He was probably planning on someone reraising and then he would push, but everyone limped to Tran. Once he raised and was called by Brown, the pot may have been too big for a push to get anyone off a hand.

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This isnt a party sng... he had plenty of bb and there is no reason to risk his whole tourt on jj in early pos. what if the raiser has a real hand, or a limper... game over(or a coin flip) he is a skilled playerand knew he could wait.

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Your logic here is very poorly thought through. Under most circumstances JJ is a great hand to get your money in with, but here was an exception. Brown either limped or made a small raise which Eric called. Everyone else came in, and then the LOOSEST player at the table made a raise, which Chad Brown called, putting the action back on Eric. In this situation, given the betting, Eric has Chad and every other player beaten preflop except the BB at least 98% of the time, and this is not an exaggeration. Given the play on Tran, JJ had excellent equity against his range of hands, not to mention the HUGE overlay Lingren gets on a push because of dead money in the pot. If you are going to confidently assert that this hand was played well, you need to think it through better. Eric is one of the best players in the world, but this hand was clearly butchered.

Gabe

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98% of the time... y not 97? or 99? (does this include slight edge coin flips) really no logic behind this number.

Get all his chips in with jj when he has a large enough stack to play the hand comfortably. sorry eric wont risk his tourt like most skilled players on a coin flip. instead he played the hand. saw a horrible flop and layed down the hand correctly. In this particular hand, because u could see all of his opponents hands, could he have pushed and took the pot down... yes. do u really think that’s true 98 percent of the time?

this brings to mind ivey getting all his chips in with jj only to be called by a preflop limped kk, didn’t you guys give him crap for that?

u think if a player doesn’t bet when he’s ahead cause you can see the hand as a bad play.

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First of all i meant to say that JJ is not usually a good hand to get your money in with in my OP. The point here is, Chad Brown doesnt limp call a raise UTG with any hand better than JJ, just as no one limps after 2 limpers with any hand better than JJ. The only person who could pose a threat was Tran, who raised out of the BB, but given his style of play, JJ has great equity against his range here. What can you refute about this?

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i though i did in my first post any of them could be playing a hand thats about even money with eric. more over tran is very unpredicable and could have him dominated. Your first post lacked all logic!

and even if your right(which your not cause many players are willing to change gears and limp with a big hand looking for a raise especailly with tran at the table) it still wouldnt make erics play worng...just different. yours has a small pot now erics a big pot in the long run.

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Your just being silly now, players aren't limping UTG and then calling raises with hands better then JJ. And they are not limping after 2 EP limpers with PP's higher than JJ. Yes i know they will mix it up, but the scenario's you suggest are just horribly unlikey. In reality, there is one player who could have Eric beat here, and he doesnt have him beat enough to justify the way Eric played the hand. It's not that i'm a phenomenal tournament player, but this is just common sense. Eric is one of the best players in the world, and in the heat heat of the moment, he butchered a hand. Not like i dont do that on a consistent basis. But just because he's Eric Lindgren doesn't mean he didn't butcher this hand.

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ggbman, agree with you completely. Given the play of the hand, the only one he had to worry about was Tran in the BB.

But this is no longer a small pot, its huge.

Its all dependent on Eric's read on Tran. I was not privy to all the play before which is important. But I think the chips have to go in.

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go crosspost this in a actual poker forum(ie M-t forum) i think youll be surprised at the response you get

makeing an allin with jj there is gonna cost you in the ling run

[O71394658]

I see absolutely no problem with Lindgren's play at all here. I think the previous hand he lost a moderately sized pot, so he just limped to prevent the table from thinking he was on tilt. He just may be a player who plays jacks for set value...which isn't a bad idea from EP.

[Sean D]

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Obviously he played the hand poorly. Maybe he was trying to keep the pot small and play against the raiser. Little did he know the whole table would come in behind him. Then when the BB makes a raise, Lindgren must think he has a big hand because he is raising into 6 other players. So maybe he was playing the hand for set value. Who knows. But I do know he donked the hand pretty badly.

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played the hand poorly??? the only thing poor is your understanding of tourtament play. jj isnt a big hand especially in early pos. he played it for to win a big pot or lose a blind or 2.

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Hmm, so I assume you are a weak-tightie that I see all the time. Flat call a raise, flat call a re-raise, fold on the flop, the hand was butchered. Now obviously there is some deception value in just calling, and he possibly was mixing it up. Now let say one of the amateur players made this play. Then we'd all be making fun of how weak-tight this play was. He needs to take the lead in the hand at some point. I agree all-in is a bad move, but he got himself in that spot because he did not re-raise the original raiser. I stand by my statement that he played the hand poorly, no matter how good of a player he is, he made a mistake, and I think he knew it.