There are those that call me... Tim?

Snoogins47 · #1 11-04-2004, 04:52 AM

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, Button folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG caps, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (12 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (15 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB
Main Pot: 19 BB, between Hero and UTG.

The preflop 3bet might be debateable. The big question here is the river. Given the turn action, who 3bets the river to an unknown?

KingSix · #2 11-04-2004, 05:05 AM

I think you played it fine. Don't sweat this one big bet on the river in this one type of situation that doesn't come up very often.

If he/she came all this way with something like QsJs, then you're just going to lose an extra bet. IMO, you are good here more than 50% of the time, so you should bet it. You can't live in fear of AA.

I would say it is much more likely that UTG had 99 and put you on something like AT.

King

jordanx · #3 11-04-2004, 05:12 AM

I would not 3 bet the river. UTG could have AA and only called the turn because of the flush potential.

Most players don't cap pre-flop unless they hold AA, KK, AKs, maybe QQ and JJ. The flop action indicates high pocket pair. He's likely got AA or KK.

The turn call leans toward KK, but again, he could be scared of flush, he could be "slow playing", it's equally likely he has AA and KK I'd say.

pokerkai · #4 11-04-2004, 05:38 AM

Preflop 3 bet is standard.

The only plausible hands ahead of you are AA and QJ and neither are likely given his flop and turn action. Easy river 3 bet.

TripleH68 · #5 11-04-2004, 05:39 AM

If the villain indeed holds AA...he made a bad mistake not raising the turn with BB on an obvious draw. Only other reasonable holdings seem to be KK,QQ or ATs(unlikely). Let's chalk it up to villain was stunned by the beauty of his set of aces on the turn and missed the raise button. Your river call is fine then...oh and I like the 3-bet preflop.

Snoogins47 · #6 11-04-2004, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop 3 bet is standard.

The only plausible hands ahead of you are AA and QJ and neither are likely given his flop and turn action. Easy river 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you might be right, but what really threw me here was the call the turn, raise the river thing. After the turn, I thought I was probably up against something like KK or QQ, but I don't think he'd raise the river with either of those. Also, I think I have to be good more than 50% of the time to be profitable, as any hand that beats me will cap. Surely that's offset a bit by his capping if he holds 99, but who knows.

Good to hear my instincts on the PF 3bet with TT are correct ;P In full games, the TT 3bet was very player-read dependent for me.

Bob T. · #7 11-04-2004, 12:08 PM

Four handed, I think it is pretty weak to not threebet the river. If he couldn't raise on the turn, then I think it is safe to assume that most hands that you are worried about, are still behind you on the river.

beginner · #8 11-04-2004, 12:29 PM

I like the 3-bet on flop because I want to fold BB's possible flush draw...
But heads up, I would call and then check-raise the turn...

On the river - with the straight possibility I would also just call UTG's raise. UTG can't possibly think that you will fold to his raise if you came this far, so he must have a legitimate hand. True... it could be JJ just as easily as QJ, but if you are ahead, you only win 1 bet here / if you are behind then he will cap and make you lose 2

Bob T. · #9 11-04-2004, 12:48 PM

First, you have to remember that this was played four handed, so the values and percieved values each player has has been changed. I think UTG might have played this way with a big ace, not wanting to chase an overpair out on the turn.

The only hand that I am really concerned about, that UTG might have, is AA, and if he has that, I am just going to lose more chips. I think it is a lot more likely that he made either aces up, or has a hand like AK, and chose to raise the river, because he was less likely to get threebet if he was behind on the river than on the turn.

Snoogins47 · #10 11-04-2004, 04:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
First, you have to remember that this was played four handed, so the values and percieved values each player has has been changed. I think UTG might have played this way with a big ace, not wanting to chase an overpair out on the turn.

The only hand that I am really concerned about, that UTG might have, is AA, and if he has that, I am just going to lose more chips. I think it is a lot more likely that he made either aces up, or has a hand like AK, and chose to raise the river, because he was less likely to get threebet if he was behind on the river than on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought AK was fairly possible as well... All in all, this hand just confused me. On the flop, I thought AA was a very real possibility. The turn comes, I'm a tad worried, and he just calls. Okay, KK, QQ, right? Then raised on the river? I may have given him too much credit, as I have no idea what the hell to put him on.

For what it's worth (which of course, is nothing), if we go by results, I definitely made the right river play (He shows me QJo ..!??!? and MHING.)

This is one of those times that a line just completely left my head spinning: There were a few hands I put him on, some I beat, some I didn't, and not a single one really made that much sense given the action, in my mind. That was my problem, I think, is that I wasn't able to say to myself "Ya know, I think I'm seeing 99 most of the time here, with AK second, and AA third, so I need to 3bet." The range of hands I was able to gather when I was actually making the decision, was just a really big WTF flashing over and over in my mind.