vs a true maniac

Beavis68 · #1 10-20-2005, 11:43 AM

Maniac was a true maniac, VPIP 64% PFR 55%, WtSD 62%, W$SD 36%, Agg 9.22, WR 34BB/100 over 60 hands. Most of this was at a full table, but he just ran off 4 players that got tired of his play.

LPP had a VPIP of 47%.

Please critic play. I don't like to get heads-up with maniacs in split games unless i have really good 2-way potential since they always seem to snag one half the pot.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, CO :#A500AF(Maniac)/ raises, Button calls, Hero calls, BB :#A500AF(LPP)/ calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, LPP checks, UTG checks, Maniac bets, Button folds, Hero calls, LPP calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, LPP checks, Maniac bets, Hero calls, LPP calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, LPP checks, Maniac bets, Hero calls, LPP calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

As Zehn · #2 10-20-2005, 01:29 PM

I'm probably gun shy after having 3 losing sessions in a row, but I'm leaning towards folding on the flop. The 3 diamonds scare me and you have a draw to 2nd nut low and only low pair at this point with a backdoor str8t draw with 2 players that could be looking for a check raise given CO's playing style.

If wrong hopefully someone will correct me.

Burdzthewurd · #3 10-20-2005, 03:21 PM

If you think you had a shot at getting it HU with maniac preflop, I'd 3-bet OOP once in awhile, but calling best solution.

Flop is easy fold, maniac could have any diamonds, and you don't even have nut low draw there.

I'd consider raising the turn here, since it's unlikely he has you beat both ways, and if he was fooling around on the flop, you have a good chance of scooping. Would he 3-bet with anything here but nut low (or same low as yours) or any non-flush hand? I think you have a good chance of scooping here, usually getting 1/2, rarely getting quartered or scooped.

Buzz · #4 10-20-2005, 03:31 PM

Hi Beavis - Maniac or no, you should fold after this flop.

As simulated (10,000 runs against four random hands), you make a straight after this flop 1839 times but only win 396 times with a straight. So the hand/flop is 396/1839 for straights.

Similarly, the hand/flop is 197/265 for boats, and 12/12 for quads.

After this flop, you have the second nut low draw plus an inside straight draw plus a back-door boat/quads draw for high. After this flop, you do end up making a straight or better about 21% of the time. But you only win with a straight or better about 6% of the time. Thus usually when you do make a straight or better, you'll lose.

You have four half-pot outs for the straight, plus roughly 3/4 of a half-pot out (with a flopped pair) for a boat/quads.

You thus have almost five half pot outs for high but not necessarily a winning high, because most of your high hopes are for a straight while a flush is already enabled for an opponent. In addition, you have four half pot outs for the nut low plus eighteen half pot outs for a non-nut low.

You have lots of outs but most of them probably just get you into trouble.

If a flush were not already possible, your various chances for high would add to the value of your 2nd nut low draw (plus four out nut low draw). And as it is, your various chances for high do add to the value of your hand - but they don't add enough to make the hand/flop worth playing.

Too bad too, because you had a very nice starting hand - not premium, but still very nice.

The cardinal rule you violated was drawing primarily to a straight for high when the board was already flushed. Yes, I know you were also (and maybe mainly) drawing for the low after this flop.

Ace-three does figure to not be up against ace-deuce about half the time for low, but roughly two out of five of those times, you'll probably get quartered or sixthed for low. Maybe you'll get quartered or sixthed less here because the maniac will tend to drive people out of the hand with non-nut lows.

You hate to give up such a nice starting hand, but I think that's your best play after this flop - regardless of your opponents (when four of them from a full table have also chosen to see the flop).

In short, at a full table, fold the second nut low draw plus straight draw after a flop enabling an opponent a flush.

After a rainbow flop of the same ranks (king, five, six) but with a spade and club, enabling two back-door draws at flushes plus the same straight and low draws (and same backdoor boat/quad draw), your hand/flop fares much better. In this case, you end up with 1020/1703 straights, 633/943 flushes, 218/287 boats, and 12/12 quads. You make a primary high hand (straight or better) more often because of the back door flush possibilities (worth about one out each) - but the main thing is you mostly win when you do make a straight or better.

Good advice to a beginner is not to draw to 2nd nut lows, but if you know what you're doing and if you hold the same hand and encounter a rainbow flop with the same ranks, you're actually the favorite because of all the various possibilities, including the 2nd nut low draw.

You can still get burned playing a rainbow flop of the same ranks with this hand, but if you know the game and your opponents well, you'll win often enough to make playing a rainbow flop of these same ranks worthwhile. (Obviously a flop making you a nut flush or nut flush draw is even better for you).

But not a flop with a flush enabled very possibly for somebody else.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Beavis68 · #5 10-20-2005, 04:43 PM

Maniac was a TRUE maniac, he would 3-bet a lot of hands here. And I don't want to be heads up against a flush and they (either of them) weren't folding a weak one.

The only reason I stay in past the flop was because a. I had a pair plus high draws. b. I had 2nd nut low draw c. the game was 6 handed and d. only the loosest two players were still in the hand. If not for ALL of these, I probably would have folded on the flop.

Thanks for the responses.

kurto · #6 10-20-2005, 05:53 PM

just to be devil's advocate... I'm okay with this hand. A true maniac gives no regard for the texture of the flop. An A3 low against a real maniac is going to be good enough to make this profitable.

If I'm playing PL or NL, then I agree one can wait for a better spot. But against a maniac, I think you occasional have to play out hands like this.

Obviously if half the table is going along, then you fold. But the reason the maniac gets 33BB/100 is because he just bets, bets, bets and people always fold fold fold.