Pocket KK and Ace on Flop, possible straight by River.

TALLBrad · #1 01-09-2005, 02:05 AM

My first hand to play at the table, no reads.
This is an area were I think I have chip spewage, similar application to QQ and JJ.

0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (7 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Because of the calling down I felt in fairly good shape, calling the river bet as a crying call just in case there isn't a Q in his hand.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Shillx · #2 01-09-2005, 02:11 AM

I'm not betting this flop. Given that you did bet, it looks fine to me. He easily could have 2 pair on the river.

Brad

Steve09797 · #3 01-09-2005, 02:12 AM

nice hand. allthough you could think about maybe a reraise on the river there. i could possible see him on JK. he cant have a strong hand if hes limping in on the button with one other caller. it is .25/1.00 though so he could very well have a queen. i might have shot at a reraise there, but its a tough call imo.

TALLBrad · #4 01-09-2005, 02:35 AM

villian had KQo

DeuceHigh80 · #5 01-09-2005, 03:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not betting this flop. Given that you did bet, it looks fine to me. He easily could have 2 pair on the river.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I was already composing a question on this topic when I hit virtually the same situation and I couldn't keep myself from betting out.

MP2 had just sat down and I had nothing on him at all -- CO was LP-P (38/2/1)...

I hesitated here and almost checked but then I would've been unsure where to take this next? Check raising after raising pre-flop seems strange, Check calling doesn't give me any info as to where I stand, and check folding with KK seems awfully weak... Note that my action wasn't considering there were only 3 to the flop -- I would've bet out if there were 5 so it's basically the same issue...

If you don't bet this then what's your line and what factors are you considering?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Shillx · #6 01-09-2005, 03:35 AM

KK with an ace on board is sometimes a good hand to "slowplay". Check/calling against few opponents on a drawless board is often times a good play. I will bet if I think that the villian will clearly define his hand on the flop. That is, he will raise if he has me beat and he will call or fold if he is drawing.

Brad

__Q__ · #7 01-09-2005, 04:00 AM

Guys, I can't stress this enough. Be agressive and call on the river. Even at low limit, No Fold'em holdem, it pays to be agressive and it pays to take and keep momentum in the hand. I know this situation is frustrating. You get KK in the pocket and your already thinking about scooping in that pot, then that Ace hits on the flop and oh crap.

As much as having that ace flop sucks, you can't go into panic mode. If you lose the pot, then you lose the pot. But folding in these cases creates more problems than it solves.

Deuce you've got to play your hand a little more agressive. Your hand is interesting cause there are several reasons not to fold here.

1) This guy just sat down. He could be impatient and looking to gamble. Don't give him credit for an Ace.

2) We know he is a Loose player. He cold called. The only hand he could have if he is decent is an AQs. That would beat you, but more likely than not, he doesn't. He could have anything. He's probably looking to gamble.

3) Players raise when they have 4 flushes. They don't neccesarily understand the concepts of semi bluffs and free cards, they just like to raise when they have 4 flushes.

4) The more people in a pot, the more likely someone has an Ace. This is a heads up pot.

5) Lots of times, your oppenent will be just as frustrated as you that the Ace hit and he will raise. It happens.

All in all, If you get heads up with somebody and you have kings, play him hard. Slow down if you need to. You don't have to cap every round. But don't fold.

Brad, yours is a case of. There are a few hands likely that can beat you. There are a few that can't. Don't fold on the river. Its only one bet to call. If you feel strongly that you're going to be beaten, its ok to check call on the river. But don't check call on the turn. You can't give up a free card and you want to give him a chance to fold. Checking on the river is ok because his hand is made or it isn't. If its made, then you don't want to get in a raise and reraise situation. If it isn't, and he checks behind you, then he probably would have folded to your bet, and you wouldn't have gotten that extra bet anyway.

DeuceHigh80 · #8 01-09-2005, 12:02 PM

My normal line would've been to 3-bet the flop when it came back to me, especially when CO fell out. If he capped the flop I would still call and then check fold the turn UI.

If he didn't cap pre-flop then I'm leading the turn and folding to a raise there, or possibly calling down.

I was literally in the middle of typing a question on this topic when I played the hand which is part of why I played it so weakly. I'm thinking "I'm not supposed to bet this -- then what am I supposed to do?".