I think my biggest leak is...

[sthief09]

the biggest leak of most people who frequent these forums (myself included sometimes) is blindly leading the advice of superior players, which leads to confusion in simple situations.

Instead of considering WHY you say to do certian things, many people just consider that you said to do it, and store it. That's why we get those posts titled, "Ed Miller Told Me To" where someone does something completely stupid, because he misunderstood you, or posts that say "Ed, you say to raise AJo in MP after 1 limper. What about after 2 limpers? What about in LMP?"

I know this is off-topic, but that's just how I feel.

[Saborion]

In Clark's reply to the post about what to do with A4s in the CO after a few limpers + 2 posters that checked when the action was on them he said to raise, not stating why. Maybe he didn't say why because he thought it was so obvious. Or maybe it was because he wanted people to think a bit, then maybe ask him if it was for the reasons they could come up with. I don't know, but I hope it was because he wanted them to think about it since there's a big difference between having to come up with something yourself and reading about it.

I used to follow "set rules", and I still do, but I'm trying to get away from it, opening up/loosen up a bit. Lately it's been working out pretty nice, and I feel I'm getting there.

[sthief09]

I'm sure he did it on purpose. I like when they tell us something, but don't way why.

[Saborion]

Well, he do appear to be somewhat smart.

[joker122]

I agree for the most part with your post. One thing I'm not sure about is you assertion that misplaying overcards (you listed AK specifically, but we could be talking about any 2 big cards such as AQ, AJ, KQ etc.) can't be a big leak. You will miss the flop 66% of the time with these hands. Isn't 66% frequent enough to become a big leak?

I forget who it was but maybe a month ago someone posted a typical AK hand that missed the flop. He prefaced his post with a confession that he was an overall loser with AKo and AKs after a substantial number of hands in his PT database. AKs and AKo are my 3rd and 5th winningest hands in terms of BB/Hand. Now, he was in the negative with each of them. If that's not a leak I don't know what is.

[Guido]

[ QUOTE ]
I forget who it was but maybe a month ago someone posted a typical AK hand that missed the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it was Big Endian if I spelled it correctly.

And no, like Ed or Clark explained in that thread even after that many hands it doesn't have to be a leak.

Guido

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]

And no, like Ed or Clark explained in that thread even after that many hands it doesn't have to be a leak.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, but Big Endian was just one example. My point is that big cards still miss 2/3 of the time which I think is frequent enough to qualify as a big leak.

[Ed Miller]

OK, but Big Endian was just one example. My point is that big cards still miss 2/3 of the time which I think is frequent enough to qualify as a big leak.

I'll grant you medium leak. But people overestimate the size of that particular leak because of the nature of overcards.

They are a high variance proposition even when played correctly. Most of the time you play your overcards, you will end up losing an extra bet or two. Occasionally you pick up a pot by playing them correctly. So after people lose ten overcard hands in a row, they sometimes tend to say, "I'm just throwing my money away on these damn overcards." That thought gets people to, "Maybe I shouldn't raise preflop in the first place so I wouldn't feel so tied to them after the flop. Then I could just fold correctly like I want to."

To some extent, they are like 16 against a 10 in blackjack. People wrack their brains about how to play that situation... and the reality is that it doesn't much matter what they do. Hitting and standing are pretty close. The reason they think so hard is because no matter what they do IT'S GONNA TURN OUT BADLY. There's no way to turn 16 against a 10 into a rosy situation.

Same thing with overcards. Generally with ace-king, you will have raised preflop so the pot is usually big enough to take one off on the flop. But people think it's such a tough decision because no matter what you do, it's not gonna be pretty. You went from excellent starting hand to very marginal situation in two seconds.

You are usually gonna lose when you flop overcards. That causes people psychologically to draw the mistaken conclusion that their play of overcards is a much bigger money loser than it probably actually is on average.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way. NO ONE plays ace-king, suited or offsuit, poorly enough to turn it into a net long-term money loser. No one. The hand is too good.

[Sixth_Rule]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Oh, and by the way. NO ONE plays ace-king, suited or offsuit, poorly enough to turn it into a net long-term money loser. No one. The hand is too good.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a DARE!

This is my first post, and I've only been playing for a couple of months, but I've been avidly reading posts and learning. What a great site! And this post from Ed Miller about playing overcards was very relevant for me tonight, so I thought I'd bump it.

I've been playing the same 1/2 table on Paradise for about 4 hours now. There was, at any given time, 2-3 very very loose aggressive players at the table, plus a couple of sharks. I tend to play tight aggressive, perhaps too aggressive, especially after the flop (I'm working on that). These LAG's were calling or raising with any damn cards. Since I only play good starting hands, that was fine by me.

HOWEVER...I got creamed several times by playing my overcards on the flop aggressively, getting called or raises by these nutballs, then losing the showdown because they paired something ridiculously small. ARRGGGH!

First, I closed the other table I was playing (I'm probably too new for that anyway; just combating boredom), and then I started in on my books, looking up "overcards on the flop."

Lee Jones..."ditch them."

Carson...."ditch them."

Okay, by now I'm thinking I've been doing the wrong thing and it's time to roll over more often. My SSHE is no where to be found (of course, my favorite, and I move it all over the house), so I started searching 2+2 and found this thread.

Ed is right...if you play the overcards correctly and carefully in the right situation, they can make more than the money lost when they don't work out. I'm not saying that I interpreted his post to mean I should play them all the time, but against LAGs, I should at least slow down (call instead of raising), and see what happens on the turn. I immediately won a $29, then a $17 pot buy calling the flop, then cramming it to them when I made top pair. Again, I'm aware that the situation must be evaluated before playing this way, but I am starting to feel like I've got a much better grip on how to play these.

Any thoughts?

BTW...I just took down 20 BBs against a LAG. We both had trips, but I had the Ace kicker. HOLD OUT FOR THE GOOD STARTING HANDS, NEWBIES!