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View Poll Results: How many?
14+ 26 11.02%
13 1 0.42%
12 2 0.85%
11 1 0.42%
10 3 1.27%
9 1 0.42%
8 1 0.42%
7 2 0.85%
6 4 1.69%
5 9 3.81%
4 13 5.51%
3 17 7.20%
2 33 13.98%
1 27 11.44%
0 96 40.68%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old 12-30-2005, 05:22 PM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

Oh, I didn't realize the unwarranted wire-tapping started back then. If that's the case, then I agree with you, he should have felt he had nothing to hide and would not have been trying to dodge political heat (at least, logically we can assume so).

I will say though, that considering how much of a no-brainer it would have been for the courts, the failure to use them was more likely due to incompetence/lack of knowledge in procedure/lack of regard/etc. (all of which, wrong), than it was a trampling of our rights.
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  #62  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:03 PM
bocablkr bocablkr is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

Steve,

Do you know how to google. Just put in 'bush denies global warming' and see what you get. Below are some examples. I also have already told you that every single National Academy of science in every country that has one claims global warming is do to fossil fuel consumption. The National academies are among the most respected scientific oraganizations around the world.

Yes, globe is warming, even if Bush denies it

The Bush administration's mantra on climate change is this: The science is not yet in to prove a link between man's gas-and-coal guzzling habits and rising global temperatures that are causing glaciers to shrink, polar ice caps to melt and seas to rise.
Yet, as USA TODAY's Dan Vergano reported Monday, not only is the science in, it is also overwhelming. Last week, the National Academy of Sciences and 10 other leading world bodies said there is "significant global warming" that requires urgent action.
Another report last week further undercut claims of bad science: The New York Times disclosed that former oil industry lobbyist Philip Cooney, chief of staff of the White House Council on Environmental Quality, altered global warming reports to downplay links between emissions and climate change.

Bush Again Denies Climate Change By Antony Barnett

05 April, 2004 by the
Observer/UK

George W. Bush's campaign workers have hit on an age-old political tactic to deal with the tricky subject of global warming - deny, and deny aggressively.

Bush: Global warming is just hot air
The planet's getting hotter, ecosystems are going haywire, government scientists know it -- and still the president denies there's a problem. Guess which industry continues to fuel his campaign?
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  #63  
Old 12-30-2005, 06:37 PM
CORed CORed is offline
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Posts: 273
Default Re: Do you support Bush?

I'm certainly not suggesting that there should be no wiretapping of terrorists. I'm simply suggesting that it should be done under the laws that are already in place, which even allow the retroactive issuing of wiretaps on communications with foreign parties.
Bush wants an unfettered right to wiretap anybody he classifies as a "terrorist" with no review or controls. He has asserted the authority to imprison any U.S. citizen classified as an "enemy combatatant" without trial, and has done so (Padilla). It is becoming increasingly apparent that the "war on terror" is a convenient excuse for a massive increase in presidential power and usurpation of civil liberties. Bush has asserted that the fact that we are "at war" (which, legally, we are not) trumps every conceivable check on his authority. Some time in 2008, he will likely assert that it's just too dangerous to elect a new president while we are "at war" and unilaterally cancel the election, so he can remain in control until the "war on terror" has been won. The biggest threat to this country is not lurking in a Middle East desrt somewhere, he is sitting on th Oval Office.
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  #64  
Old 12-30-2005, 09:01 PM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
It is becoming increasingly apparent that the "war on terror" is a convenient excuse for a massive increase in presidential power and usurpation of civil liberties.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly does Bush have to gain from a "usurpation of civil liberties"? "Hey let's start a war so that I can run some wire taps and take away people's civil liberties!"

[ QUOTE ]
Bush has asserted that the fact that we are "at war" (which, legally, we are not) trumps every conceivable check on his authority.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he has said about the wire taps is that their secrecy was essential for their effectiveness, hence not wanting to go through a court process. Whether or not you buy it, it's certainly conceiveable that his actions are intended for our protection; saying he's asserted that he can go unchecked whenever he wants is a big jump.

[ QUOTE ]
The biggest threat to this country is not lurking in a Middle East desrt somewhere, he is sitting on th Oval Office.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess democracy sucks.... why are you living here?? That was some A+ rhetoric though, well done.
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  #65  
Old 12-30-2005, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
What he has said about the wire taps is that their secrecy was essential for their effectiveness, hence not wanting to go through a court process. Whether or not you buy it, it's certainly conceiveable that his actions are intended for our protection; saying he's asserted that he can go unchecked whenever he wants is a big jump.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, that FISA court leaks like a sieve. (rolls eyes) Do you even believe this stuff or are you just typing off of some talking points?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The biggest threat to this country is not lurking in a Middle East desrt somewhere, he is sitting on th Oval Office.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I guess democracy sucks.... why are you living here?? That was some A+ rhetoric though, well done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, clearly you have decided that democracy sucks since you support unchecked executive power. But "why are you living here??" Is that really the best you can do? Sorry, you get an F.
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  #66  
Old 12-30-2005, 11:58 PM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

"it's certainly conceiveable that his actions are intended for our protection; saying he's asserted that he can go unchecked whenever he wants is a big jump."

I agree with the first part. He may have acted in what he thought were national security interests. Let's assume that he did.

I don't see the big jump that you see in the second part of your statement though. The arguments that he, the attorney general, and the vice president have made assert that he has inherent powers under the constitution to act in the national interest. And that those powers permit him to wiretap, without a warrant, when he sees fit. They are saying precisely that he can go unchecked whenever he wants.
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  #67  
Old 12-31-2005, 01:05 AM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

"The arguments that he, the attorney general, and the vice president have made assert that he has inherent powers under the constitution to act in the national interest. And that those powers permit him to wiretap, without a warrant, when he see fit. They are saying precisely that he can go unchecked whenever he wants."

Well I would agree that he has asserted that he has the power to go unchecked, whenever he wants, as long his actions are necessary to national security.... and if that is the case, I don't have a problem with it.


Elliot, I'm just telling you the administration's stance on it (as far as I know). Do I really believe it? Sure. But I haven't informed myself on this subject as much as an uber-partisan Democrat looking for any reason to complain. Perhaps you're better informed. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #68  
Old 12-31-2005, 01:38 AM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

"Well I would agree that he has asserted that he has the power to go unchecked, whenever he wants, as long his actions are necessary to national security.... and if that is the case, I don't have a problem with it."

Fair enough. But I sure have a problem with it. Unhchecked power is dangerous. All tyrants claim they are protecting "national security" when doing their dirty deeds. I'm not saying Bush is a tyrant, I'm saying unchecked power is a road to tyrannical actions, paved with good intentions or not.

The FISA court has been quite generous in its interpretation of national security, approving thousands of wire taps while turning down only a handful. Bush could have wiretapped anyone he wanted to and had 72 hours to get approval thereafter. All such requests have not suffered from the court not being able to give approval because of time constraints, as a member of the court is always in Washington for just such reason. There is absolutely no national security reason--security, time, strong possibility of wiretaps being refused by the court--for Bush going around FISA.

That leads to the possibility that there are other reasons for it. Without imputing illicit motives to the administration, one can simply listen to what they are saying. And what they are saying is that the president's powers have been eroded and they want them "restored." So there we are on the road to tyrannical actions/ an imperial presidency.
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  #69  
Old 12-31-2005, 01:49 AM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

Damn it. If you keep writing things that coherently you force me to agree. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]
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