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View Poll Results: How many?
14+ 26 11.02%
13 1 0.42%
12 2 0.85%
11 1 0.42%
10 3 1.27%
9 1 0.42%
8 1 0.42%
7 2 0.85%
6 4 1.69%
5 9 3.81%
4 13 5.51%
3 17 7.20%
2 33 13.98%
1 27 11.44%
0 96 40.68%
Voters: 236. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
Also it's incredible to me that so many posters on this forum value stability of autocratic, despotic, murderous dictators. For crying out loud North Korea is stable too does that make their government desirable or even legitimate? The Shah of Iran was stable for a long period of time. Hell the Soviet Union was stable for many, many years.


[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't you know, regimes run by autocratic, despotic, murderous dictators aren't evil, because its "much more complicated" than that?

Apparantly, the liberty and freedom of "other" people doesn't matter, so long as there is "peace" in the world.
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  #22  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:31 AM
lehighguy lehighguy is offline
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Posts: 590
Default Re: Do you support Bush?

I think the most enlightning thing about politics today is that Bush himself has greater support then his various policies.
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  #23  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:33 AM
bdypdx bdypdx is offline
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Posts: 241
Default Re: Do you support Bush?

Like another liberal, "Al Franken", I do support the troops.

Definitely NOT the Bush administration however!

Cheers.
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  #24  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:38 AM
bdypdx bdypdx is offline
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Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 241
Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose this is an overlap of many topics, but i hope this thread will help me understand more opinions.

OVERALL i support Bush. I've always thought the WMD reason was a mistake for the USA to hang its motives on. I wanted us to remove Saddamn because HE WAS AN UNACCEPTABLE THREAT TO NECCESSARY MIDDLE EAST STABILITY.

And concerning the phone tapping stuff, I think many don't have their priorities in order. Yes, it would be best if such sticky actions were free of constitutional issues, but it's most inportant that WE ARE FINDING TERRORISTS THAT ARE PLANNING TO KILL US EN MASSE. The white house has stressed that phomes are only tapped against those that are credible suspects. I WANT THIS TO CONTINUE. DON'T YOU? And honestly, i couldn't care less if the goverment is listening to my bad beat phone stories. I have nothing to hide.

Your thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts? I see no problem with the white house obeying the FISA law. Unfortunately, the current white house thinks that it is above the law. Go figure....
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  #25  
Old 12-28-2005, 01:43 AM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Posts: 4,677
Default Re: Do you support Bush?

Approximately 50% of the electorate voted for Bush in 2000 and again in 2004.

The administration agrees with your reason for opposing Hussein. WMDs and 9/1 were excuses, not reasons for the invasion. They thought they were making the world safe for us to prosper in it. They see the Middle East as the key to remaking the world in their image.

As for the phone tapping, the administration could have accomplished whatever it wanted going through the FISA court, which has approved tens of thousands of wiretaps while rejecting only a handful. The fact that they didn't lends one to believe they have something to hide. They can protect us from terrorists using the FISA system. The idea that the president has inherent powers to wiretap or because of the congressional resolution to use force in the wake of 9/11 is a naked, undemocratic power grab. This was stated very clearly by Vice Presidnet Cheney on his way back from Iraq when he said we need to increase the powers of the president.

If we let paranoia about our enemies effect us so that we allow our leaders inordinate power over our lives, we will face a bigger problem at least as big as the terrorists.
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  #26  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:09 AM
ALawPoker ALawPoker is offline
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Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 38
Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
As for the phone tapping, the administration could have accomplished whatever it wanted going through the FISA court, which has approved tens of thousands of wiretaps while rejecting only a handful. The fact that they didn't lends one to believe they have something to hide.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely it was that they knew the Dems would play politics with it if they found out the administration was requesting permission to spy. So they hoped they could get away with it. I'm not a fan of violating the constitution, but I'm more concerned about obeying the spirit of it rather than the proper technical procedure.

Due process does exist for a reason, but I'm happy to let this one slide because frankly there are more important things to be debating right now.


Also I'm surprised this poll is as high in support of Bush as it is (25% when I checked). His approval rating is hovering around the low-30s and I would think the selection bias of an internet forum (generally younger, more urban people.... especially a poker forum) would have a bigger impact.
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  #27  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
Due process does exist for a reason, but I'm happy to let this one slide because frankly there are more important things to be debating right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just scary that you could feel this way about the constitution of the US. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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  #28  
Old 12-28-2005, 02:30 AM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

"Most likely it was that they knew the Dems would play politics with it if they found out the administration was requesting permission to spy. So they hoped they could get away with it."

I don't buy this. The FISA court had been used thousands of times. For example, in 1996, under a Democratic president, the FISA court approved over 800 surveillance and physical search orders. If the Republicans didn't make hay with that against Clinton, why would they have worried about the Dems doing that against Bush? Especially in the wake of 9/11, I don't see how the administration could have thought the Dems could make political hay with this.

The problem with obeying the "spirit" of the law, rather than the "proper technical procedure," it that the spirit is open to each person's personal interpretation of that spirit. According to Attorney General Gonzalez, the president has the inherent right to wiretap without a court order to protect the country. If that's the case, why do we even need a FISA court? I thought the Constitution protected us from warrantless wiretaps, not that it gave the president the inherent right to do it when he decided it was OK.
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  #29  
Old 12-28-2005, 08:12 AM
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as the "wire tapping" issue, I have seen and read that it was only numbers that:

a) Were contained in material seized from captured terrorists.

b) Were coming from or to known terrorists.


[/ QUOTE ]

Riddle me this Batman- if there was evidence that they were terrorists, why not go to a judge and get a warrent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Robin, for the same damned reason it is all over the news now. The more people that know about it, the more likely The New York Crimes and the rest of the liberal rags are going to print it. As of this morning, the attorneys that are representing the terrorists that have been caught are planning to use this as a defense. Why aren't you worried about Clinton when he spied on the people at "Ruby Ridge"?

For the record, it's "warrant", not warrent.
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  #30  
Old 12-28-2005, 09:13 AM
canis582 canis582 is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: I, state your name...
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Default Re: Do you support Bush?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"HE WAS AN UNACCEPTABLE THREAT TO NECCESSARY MIDDLE EAST STABILITY."

[/ QUOTE ]

None of his neighbors in the region perceived him to be a threat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting my ass kicked in Omaha/8 so I'm in a fowl mood [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. This is simply an unbeleivable response considering he waged war on Iran and Kuwait and if memory serves launched some scud missles in the direction of Saudi Arabia. God only knows how many Kurds and Shias he was responsible for murdering and you claim neighboring countries didn't perceive him as a threat?

Also it's incredible to me that so many posters on this forum value stability of autocratic, despotic, murderous dictators. For crying out loud North Korea is stable too does that make their government desirable or even legitimate? The Shah of Iran was stable for a long period of time. Hell the Soviet Union was stable for many, many years.

[/ QUOTE ]

#1: move down in stakes, try play money

#2: there is volumious evidence to suggest that the middle east is LESS stable without Saddam than it is with it. Why wouldn't our allies, Turkey and Bahrain, let us use their counties as staging grounds if Saddam was such a threat to them?

#3: The US government loves brutal dictators, as long as they are friendly to us.
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