$20-$40 Oceanside Hand

[Jeff V]

Sounds like a pretty easy bet to me.

[Bill Haywood]

If it's a good player, it is hard to picture him sticking around with 6 and something. But if he had pocket sixes, and got trips on the turn, that would explain betting out. Which means he is now check raising with quads.

But that would be a very subtle and well informed read.

I say bet out, unless you know the player well enough to spot quads.

[elysium]

hi jim
interesting hand. on the pre-flop, the good multi-way followed by your raise ties any good reasonable hands down pretty snuggly to the pot. while i don't think that a turn raise will get the fold now if you wind up with something like top pair by the turn, if you flop solidly you should keep them hanging in there.

ok, the blind bets on the flop.....,hmmmm. that's usually fantastic and you don't want to discourage him from betting again and then driving the bets around to you, but he must get a lot of respect and be a good player because many fold. well, while you wouldn't cap the flop if capping meant that the blind wouldn't drive those turn bets around, capping can still be ok-ish here since you're on the absolute button. but not capping is usually best. only if the BB was loose would you go ahead and cap.

ok, now of course here, you called 1 bet. that's ok if you want to get the fold on the turn, but the pot is already large and since it's impossible to reduce the size of the pot, we have to assume the pot size will keep the hands of lesser value than yours hanging in there. and i also follow your advice about tending to bet strongly from the button since your opponents will not suspect a very strong hand. here, if you were in EP, i think calling is more reasonable. if the pot were smaller, i think calling is more reasonable.

dang it jim, i miss your card player articles a lot. your techniques in small pot situations are perfect. you also make a finer gray line of when to and when not to, and when i looked and saw this post i said 'fantastic, boy....do i ever want to congradulate jim on perfect play so he will come back.", and i sit click getting all ready and find that you have given me this.

in all your cardplayer articles, there's nothing like this. i'm sure that you didn't play this hand like this., but you did. yeah, you get your once in a blue moon perfect turn confrontation; staring at 2 cold with the stone cold nuts, but that turn confrontation against the 2 cold mars this post because there is something very important here, in addition to how to play the button 101.

this is a great post because we find out what to do on the river. and with what frequency.

what has happened is so simple you can't see it. on the river you're tied to the pot. he would rarely check and risk losing the benefits of the tie-to. you will surely call. will he never go for a check-raise? no. occasionally he will. how often? with the same frequency that you face a 2 cold with the stone cold nuts. once in a blue moon. should you ever check it down? only if you want to be blue moon quirky, and that's fine as long as you're quirky only once in a blue moon for variance. should you ever pre-plan facing 2 cold with the stone cold nuts? yes, but only once in a blue moon of course.

you need to read j.b.c.p.a. (jim brier card player archives).

the reason for all the celestial references jim is because of mars proximity to earth. if you get a chance, take a breather outside to see mars. it's pretty spectacular. awesome.

i knew i would say the words 'spectacular' and 'awesome' in this thread. clear river bet.

[Sredni Vashtar]

Some ferrets believe that the sets he could hold represent ten hands (TT, 66, 55, 22: 3+1+3+3=10).

Yet other ferrets surmise that he could hold many flushes such as KQ, K9, Q9, J9, 89, 78, 97, 86, and possibly others. This is about 8 or so hands.

Some insolent ferrets suggested he could hold KK, QQ with a diamond, but a third of the group insisted that they couldn't, so we compromised. 6*2/3. That's kinda like 4
hands.

Yet more ferrets interjected that he might have KT, and QT with a diamond. A few dissenters were quickly ushered away. No one has yet heard from them. Some say hemlock....others say they went to a retirement hutch. So that's six more.

And that, dear ferrets, is getting pretty close to the fulcrum. And since guessing the opponents' hands is fun nebulous thing, we will speculate no further. Those of you at home that wish to speculate by your own hand may consider closing the curtains, but that's a personal choice.

So do those hands that represent the check raising hands look about right? If not, no worries.

So those that represent calling hands look about right? Oh, that would be not so bad, really.

You humans do worry so.

If the check raising hands are tighter (there are less than the fulcrum), then bet.

If the calling hands are tighter, don't bet.

If there is some evil combination of the two, adjust and act accordingly.

Be sure to make your ferret fulcrums before you goto the cardroom. We wouldn't want the f-word used in public.

Thank you for reading,

Peace.

Sredni Vashtar

Note: There are certain assumptions made above, left out for clarity, and presumably most of you can gather what they are, and Sredni is a lazy ferret. If you suspect what is posted above is wrong, it might be an interesting thought project to deduce what assumptions that Sredni did make , and thus you can see the wrongness of Sredni's ways. But bear in mind there is still some hemlock remaining and Sredni's teeth are glistening sharp, so govern yourself accordingly. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Philuva]

I think this is an easy bet as well on the river. I would still be forced to call a check-raise.

I think most players come out betting on the river if they made their full-house more often then going for the check-raise here.

[Jim Brier]

I bet because I thought my hand was still good and I would get calls from smaller flushes or maybe even two pair type hands given all the money in the pot. If my opponent had made a full house then I would think he would have bet the river. Furthermore, his raise on the turn seemed more consistent with someone who had flopped a flush than with someone who had made a set.

I turned out to be wrong. My opponent called and won the pot with fives full. A friend of mine, who is a top middle limit player, thought I should have checked.

Given the fact that my opponent was not going to check-raise me when he does fill up, does this make betting on the end more or less attractive? (I think it makes it more attractive).

[Philuva]

It makes it MUCH more attractive, as I think you have to pay-off the check-raise.

The chances of him having a full house is less than him having 2-pair or a smaller flush and only one bet is going in either way makes this a clear river bet.

[skp]

You have an easy bet and he had an easy checkraise on the river and then you would have had an "easy" crying call at the end.

I can't imagine how either of you can play it any diffferently (well, okay, maybe the guy might want to bet the river instead of going for the checkraise).

As for the poker boom, I can only surmise that if there is a boom, it surely must be in the lower limits in the first instance i.e., new players are not going to wade into the 40-80 (or even 20-40) waters as of yet. Perhaps, the effects of the boom will not touch the higher games for a couple of years yet as some of these newer players get some playing experience.

Last but not least, welcome back. I hope it's not just a temporary resurfacing. This place misses you big time.

[mikelow]

Look at it this way: your opponent missed a raise. Was he afraid of you holding pocket sixes or tens?

Personally, I have found the Ocean's Eleven 20-40 game hard to beat; that's why I hardly play there anymore.

[Phat Mack]

Given the fact that my opponent was not going to check-raise me when he does fill up,

I don't understand this. Are you saying it was correct for him not to raise with 5's full? Personally, I would have raised. I agree that his play makes your river bet more attractive.