State sponsored suicide bombings by children

[nicky g]

How about you modify your original claim to "Several Middle Eastern governments, in particular Syria and Iran, financially support Palestinian terror groups, and those groups indoctrinate children about suicide bombings, as do some PA-sanctioned media". Drop the stuff about most Arab governments, their state-run schools, and killing "tresspassing infidels", and we might actually be able to more or less agree on something. Or do we have to "go to the mat" again? Er, "bring it on."

[BruceZ]

You read about on a par with the other leftists on this page. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you read. I can see I'm not going to have much time for this. I can't be working my ass off to dig up evidence that I've already seen of things that I and most people know are true just to convince you when you won't be convinced no matter what I show you, unless you want to pay my research fee. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

All your links but one point to Palestinian publications.

RRRRR, wrong. The last one references a number of other countries.

Iran is not an Arab country.

It is printed in Kuwait, and it says it is distributed by internet "throughout the muslim world".

The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself)

RRRRR. See the same article I posted from the Jeruselem post.

presents no evidence of any state or educational support for the publication.

It says it's printed in Kuwait, and distributed to schoolchildren by internet throughout the muslim world. In the Arab world, nothing is allowed by print or internet that isn't under government control. The government controls this propaganda (I'll let you verify *that* if you don't know it).

None of your links demonstrate any teaching praising the suicide bombers in state-run schools, whether Palestinian or other Arab ones.

What do you call this?
Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshipers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews. (The New York Times, Apr. 2, 2002)

This is rather pathetic

That's for sure. LOL And there is more evidence I could have put up specifically about what is being taught in Arab schools if this wasn't enough, I thought it was plenty. I know what is taught in the schools because I've seen interviews with those that attended those schools, and with the parents. See my post in the other thread, and M has some info on this too. But what good would it do? If I showed you 10 articles about 10 schools, you'd still just say "oh that's 10 schools out of the whole Arab world". You have a certain worldview you want to believe, and that is what you're going to believe no matter what anyone shows you. I look at the amount of evidence and the extreme nature of the evidence, and I say there is clearly a pervasive problem here, that can't exist without widespread cultural and governmental support. I have my read, and you have yours. If you want to believe all the antecdotes we read about are some isolated nut cases, and they live on an island surrounded by normal people, go right ahead. I hope you don't try to use that reading ability at poker, or if you do I want you at my table.

Bruce, this is what you wrote, and what I queried:

"As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land."

You referred to "most Arab governements", and governement-controlled schools. You said nothing about the existnece of pro-suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children. Of course some exists - it's created by the suicide bombers and their supporters. Again, you wrote about "most Arab governement" state schools.

I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again. I said this is how we can investigate this, and that is what I've done for some states. I never claimed it was true of all states, or that I planned to be comprehensive. You claimed there was not a shred of evidence, and I provided plenty of shreds to get you started.

"5. Arab states financially support a number of terrorist groups."

Again, you didn not claim this. I don't dispute that some Arab states support terrorist groups.

That was the larger point I was making which started the whole thing, that the Arab states support terrorist groups, some of which have stated their objective to destroy Israel. You said you didn't agree, and the stuff about what they teach in schools was just one way to prove that. If you now agree that Arab states support these terrorist groups, then fine, it sounds like you're convinced now.

But however you want to nit pick these issues and the wordings of my claims, you're missing the bigger picture here as is typical. There is ample evidence here of cultural acceptance of using children for suicide bombings against Israel, and propaganda being circulated to encourage this. These children are exploited by terrorist groups which receive government funding by states with full knowlege of this practice. How can you sit there and tell me that such conditions can exist without widespread indoctrination of the children and all the people in a philosophy of hatred and violence towards Israel, and the support of the objectives of Hamas whose stated objectives are to destroy Israel?

How about you modify your original claim to "Several Middle Eastern governments, in particular Syria and Iran, financially support Palestinian terror groups, and those groups indoctrinate children about suicide bombings, as do some PA-sanctioned media". Drop the stuff about most Arab governments, their state-run schools, and killing "tresspassing infidels", and we might actually be able to more or less agree on something.

Sounds good to me, that's really all I ever claimed. Cal Thomas made the "most Arab" statement, not me. I just said we can find out if it's true by looking at what experts know about the financial support (last article) and by looking at what is taught in state run schools. State sponsored media is fine too, I don't care *how* the state indoctrinates the youth. But I know I can also find evidence for what is taught in schools in a number of countries, because I've heard interviews with people who attended those schools, and from parents who have had children in those schools. I can't post the interview in the web, but I'm sure I can find it documented somewhere. As for "killing infidels", of course they do, who else are the suicide bombers killing?

[nicky g]

[ QUOTE ]
All your links but one point to Palestinian publications.

RRRRR, wrong. The last one references a number of other countries

[/ QUOTE ]

Not regarding pro-suicide bombing propaganda, which is what I'm referring to here; it refers to other countries regarding funding for Hamas, IJ, and AAM.


"It says it's printed in Kuwait, and distributed to schoolchildren by internet throughout the muslim world. In the Arab world, nothing is allowed by print or internet that isn't under government control. The government controls this propaganda (I'll let you verify *that* if you don't know it)."

It says it's distributed on the internet, which means it's available to anyone with internet access, except as you point out in certain countries where some pages are censored. It does not offer any evidence that Arab countries either permit or encourage its dissemination to children on the internet. All it shows is that someone has published suicide-bombing propaganda directeed at children on the net. It has nothing to do with schools, and nothing to do with "tresspassing infidels."

"Friday mosque sermons broadcast on PA controlled TV have called on worshippers to arm themselves or
their children with explosives to pursue holy war against the Jews."

Er, I call it a call from a mosque, broadcast on TV. I see no mention of schools, or other Arab countries. I've acknowledged that there is some propaganda of the type you describe diseeminated through PA media; maybe your comprehension and/or short-term memory skills could use a little work.

"I never claimed it was true of all states, or that I planned to be comprehensive. You claimed there was not a shred of evidence, and I provided plenty of shreds to get you started. "

You claimed it was true of "most." That's what I asked for evidence for. I said claimed you hadn't offered any evidence; you hadn't, and you still haven't offered any for the "most", "state-run schools", and "tresspassing infidels" claims.

"That was the larger point I was making which started the whole thing, that the Arab states support terrorist groups, some of which have stated their objective to destroy Israel. You said you didn't agree, and the stuff about what they teach in schools was just one way to prove that. If you now agree that Arab states support these terrorist groups, then fine, it sounds like your convinced.

But however you want to nit pick these issues and the wordings of my claims, you're missing the bigger picture here as is typical. There is ample evidence here of cultural acceptance of using children for suicide bombings against Israel, and propaganda being circulated to encourage this. These children are exploited by terrorist groups which receive government funding by states with full knowlege of this practice. How can you sit there and tell me that such conditions can exist without widespread indoctrination of the children and all the people in a philosophy of hatred and violence towards Israel, and the support of the objectives of Hamas whose stated objectives are to destroy Israel?"

I wasn't responding to your "larger" point. I asked for evidence for, and specifically disagreed with, your claim that state-run schools in most Arab countries taught children to hate the West and kill "tresspassing infidels." You still haven't offered any evdence for this, and seem to be dropping it. I did not say I disagreed with the claim that some Arab governements fund terrorist groups.

"I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again."

In the post I asked for evidence for, and disagreed with, you did not. I'll quote it again:

"The experts who make their living studying such things tell us that these terrorist groups such as Hamas wouldn't be able to operate in the manner they do without the financial sponsorship of the state. You don't think Arafat could shut them down if he wanted to? You're spinning.

As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land. "

You are now trying to claim that there are only nitpicking dfferences betwen the claims that "Several Middle Eastern governments give financial support to Palestinian terrorist groups, and there is some propaganda aimed at indoctrinating children in favour of these groups (including some in offical PA media", and the statement that "Most Arab governments teach children in government-run schools teach children to hate the West and to kill tresspassing infidels." There is a world of difference.

[nicky g]

"The article, which is hardly from impeccable sources (the IDF itself)

RRRRR. See the same article I posted from the Jeruselem post. "

This is teh attribution from the JP article: "by VJ's IDF Sources". It's the same article, from the same source.

[BruceZ]

Not regarding pro-suicide bombing propaganda, which is what I'm referring to here; it refers to other countries regarding funding for Hamas, IJ, and AAM.

That's all I was intending to show, that a number of other countries support these terrorist groups. That was my main point, the suicide bombing was just one way to show that.

It says it's distributed on the internet, which means it's available to anyone with internet access, except as you point out in certain countries where some pages are censored.

Right, and that means it's available in the countries where it's censored, so the government lets it through. It is well known that the government supports propaganda of this kind.

Er, I call it a call from a mosque, broadcast on TV. I see no mention of schools, or other Arab countries. I've acknowledged that there is some propaganda of the type you describe diseeminated through PA media; maybe your comprehension and/or short-term memory skills could use a little work.

You just admitted that in your last post that I was responding to, check *your* short term memory. If you admit that, then you've made my case for me. The government supports propaganda aimed at getting kids to become suicide bombers and blow up as many Israeles as they can. Done. I win. As for the schools, I know I can find evidence for that because I've seen the evidence as I describe in my recent addition to the last post, but I don't need that anymore. I only needed that to show that the government supports this propaganda, and you agree with that so I'm done.

I did not say I disagreed with the claim that some Arab governements fund terrorist groups.

2 for 2.

"I specifically mentioned the suicide bombing propaganda directed towards children, go look again."

In the post I asked for evidence for, and disagreed with, you did not. I'll quote it again:

You haven't read the newest additions to that thread yet.

"The experts who make their living studying such things tell us that these terrorist groups such as Hamas wouldn't be able to operate in the manner they do without the financial sponsorship of the state.

This is why I inluded the financial link. To show how much money they get from these states, and to show that they would be severely limited without state support.

I also added some stuff to the previous post in this thread, probably while you were writing.

The bottom line is, I believe that Arab countries (and I never said most, show me where I said most)

As for "most Arab governments", that depends on if you go by what they do, or if you are gullible and go by what the tell the west their policy is. If you want to know what their true attitude is, look at what the government controlled schools teach their kids. That it is their duty to hate the west, to hate Israel, and that it is an honroable purpose to kill all the infidels who trespass on their land. "

That's not saying anything about what I think most Arab governments do. If you think it does, maybe you should get your comprehension checked. It's saying if you listen to what they tell the west, then you're gullible, no matter what they actually do, and if you want to know what they do, here's how to go about finding out. I have done this for *some* Arab governments, which is all I claimed at the top of this thread. I happen to believe that I can do it for more, I don't know about most, as in 12/22, I didn't put it in those terms.

I'm happy with your final conclusion. I know much more and I could prove more, but that's all I really care to prove.

[BruceZ]

But it's reprinted in the Jeruselem post, so they must consider this a reliable source.

[ACPlayer]

Well, I too would take issue with your statement regarding Arab states. Lets look at:

Saudi Arabia: The state is pro-US and is supported by the US in keeping its population in check

Egypt: Same as above.

Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE: Same as above but to different degrees.

Iraq: was happily neutral, raping and pillaging their own popoulations and wealth until 1991 when the US Ambassador gave ambiguous signal to Saddam prior to his dumbass takeover of attempt if Kuwait.

Turkey: Not arab, but muslim, still friendly.

Morocco, Tunis -- I dont know.

Whatever I missed I dont know.

The only states that are against the US are Iran and Syria.

Hamas' attitude could be elimination of Israel or the betterment of the Palestinians. To them those two are the same thing.

[nicky g]

"Done. I win. As for the schools, I know I can find evidence for that because I've seen the evidence as I describe in my recent addition to the last post, but I don't need that anymore. I only needed that to show that the government supports this propaganda, and you agree with that so I'm done. "

Gah. I asked about government-run schools in Arab countries teaching children to hate the West and that it's honorable to kill "tresspassing infidels". You've responded with PA propaganda about suicide bombings against Israelis and the assertion that some Arab countries fund terrorists, neither of which I mentioned or queried.

I'll say it one more time: I asked for proof regarding , and described as fiction, your claim that state run schools in Arabic countries (I believe you meant most, but it doesn't matter right now as you've not done it for any) teach children to hate the West, and that it would be honourable for them to kill "trespassing infidels." If you have proof for this, then just show it.

[BruceZ]

Saudi Arabia: The state is pro-US and is supported by the US in keeping its population in check

They are very duplicitous, putting on a good face for us while stabbing us in the back.

There is a book out now with strong evidence that members of the Saudi Royal family knew about 911 before it occurred and didn't tell the US. This is based on testimony obtained through interrogation of a high ranking Al Qaeda. The information is credible because of the interesting way it was obtained which I won't attempt to describe in this box, and he revealed verifiable information implicating several powerful individuals in government and industry including a Saudi Prince and the owner of a company that has bred a number of Kentucky Derby winners I believe.

I guess this would go under support for my statement about hatred of the west and killing of the infidels. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] If someone doesn't put up the title, I can try to find it. The author was interviewed on Fox.

[BruceZ]

Sounds good, I'm glad you basically agree with me on everything now.