Democracy = Capitalism?

[NancyD]

"Socialism/Communism are a direct anethma to individual rights. They are predicated on the notion that government is more important then the individual. That they serve the state rather then are served by the state. Thus they are at odds with what we would consider constitutional democracy."


You are confusing fascism with communism.

[lehighguy]

Not really. They're about the same thing. Only slight economic differences in thier economic policy. The core political policy, that the state is supreme, is in both.

[ACPlayer]

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They are predicated on the notion that government is more important then the individual

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This is not correct. IMO, socialism/communism are predicated on the notion that the collective (and not the government) is more important than the individual.

Unfortunately, there has been limited success in governments that are socialist or communist that have not got carried away with the notion that the it is the government that is more important. Hence the apparent confusion some have between socialism and fascism.

And of course, it is impossible for anyone to dictate the thoughts or feelings or desires of another. When government try to do so, the government starts to fall under its own weight. Our notion that we can dictate to peoples in other countries may lead to American system going the way of communist Russia (they of course tried to dictate to their own people and met the predictable fate).

[lehighguy]

Isn't the state the spirit of the people in facism. And it is given precedence over the individual because it is the embodiment of the society.

In both communism and facism the state is given power over the individual in the name of the collective.

[ACPlayer]

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In both communism and facism the state is given power over the individual in the name of the collective

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In all forms of govt the state is given power over the individual.

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Isn't the state the spirit of the people in facism.

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No, in fascism the State takes the spirit of the Fascist rather than the spirit of the people. Saddam's govt for example reflected the spirit of Saddam and cronies not the people.

[tomdemaine]

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I'll give government wealth redistribution programs a terse mention, because that's all they deserve. Governmental attempts to redistribute worth have all failed miserably. One need not even gesture as to peoples rights to thier own property, such moral posturing is unecessary to prove the point. Those systems fail because they have been unable to provide a better life for thier propulations. It is a pure failure with no redeeming qualities.

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Assuming you know some micro economics you'll know that a government can, through lump sum transfers, create any allocation of wealth they like and, assuming freedom to trade, convex preferences etc, it will still be Pareto optimal. Let me go and find my edgeworth box diagrams...

[Dan Mezick]

“Democracy and Capitalism”. What a cocktail. They go together, like scotch and water.

This is something I have thought about for a long time and I'm glad to see this post.

Societal structure is in large part defined by the number and width of the pathways to the top that are available to meritorious individuals in the society. The more pathways and the wider they are, the faster the most talented individuals can rise to the top, regardless of what level of society they originate from. Politics and economics tend to define the number and width of these available pathways to influence, in the society.

In the USA we get sold “democracy” as the actual political order when in fact what it is actually anything but. Likewise in the USA we get sold “capitalism” as the actual economic order when in fact it is actually anything but.

What we DO have in the USA is a large number of very wide pathways to political and economic power. We have a society that is in effect a huge FARM SYSTEM for the development of political and economic leadership of not just the USA, but THEWORLD.

For an object example of what’s possible, look no further than Condaleeza Rice.

If you have the percentile, you are rapidly swept along towards the pathways to the political and economic elite, via the university education system. From there, you are launched into the elite almost automatically if you have the right stuff. Our educational system even attracts those who might lead in their own non-USA country. But when the best and the brightest get here, they often witness what I am saying, and what do they do? They decide to stay. In general this tends to strengthen the USA and weakens its competition, via “talent raiding”.

The USA farm system is a force in the world. We consistently attract the best talent not just from our own people but from all people around the world. These foreigners fuel our economic leadership. We are +1 and the originating country is -1 when a gifted entrepreneur decides to stay in the USA. The net is a +2 for USA competitiveness.

While “democracy” and “capitalism” are sold us as the way things work, what we have is in fact a hybrid system that is both a subset and superset of these two political and economic approaches aimed at building out and maintaining a huge farm system that draws from the entire world.

Via “democracy” and “capitalism”, the USA has created a vast farm system—THE BEST farm system in the world-- one that identifies and develops the best and the brightest, and moves them rapidly to the top. From there the USA competes globally in the global-scope political and economic arenas.

The results are in. Morality and ethical considerations aside, what has become plain is that we in the USA have implemented a political and economic system that trumps those of other nations competing for global political and economic dominance. Just look at what Reagan, using our system (and some deficit spending) did to the USSR.

The USSR did not make the final table.

Certainly we are witnessing the world-history geopolitical “final table” and the USA is clearly the big stack. It seems to me there is really nothing random about this, and that the USA plays the best according to the ruthless definition of the game.

[lehighguy]

Yes, but the leader himself is suppose to be the embodiment of the people. For instance, the Japanese emporer was considered to be a god and the spirit of the Japanese. Therefore he ruled on behalf of them because he was them.

[lehighguy]

There are obscure situations in which min wage increases will actually improve welfare. But they are founded on such extravigent assumptions that they are completely unworkable in real life. I've had long discussions on that subject and others in many threads and come to the conclusion that all major wealth redistribution programs have been huge failures (at least here in the states).

If you can name a major wealth distribution program in America that has been successful I'll yield.

[ACPlayer]

But that is not socialism/communism. In japan it could be characterized as a benevolent monarchy I guess.