Refusing to chop in a mtt -EV?

[captZEEbo1]

I don't know if this is the right place to post it (it seems more fitting to me than to actually post it in mtt), but let's say I make final table in a mtt. It gets 5 handed and they want to chop. For whatever reason I don't want to chop. Are people going to be playing differently against me which will make my refusal to chop -ev? For example, people trying harder to bust you, reraising you more preflop to spite you, less likely to go bust until I go bust b/c they know they can get a chop once I'm gone? Any opinions on this? Because I might make a final table someday, and the last thing I want to do is chop unless I'm getting some amazing deal (unless of course, you guys think it's -ev to NOT chop).

[xniNja]

Depends on the chop. Deals are commonplace; it could be favorable depending on the situation.

[random]

They aren't just going to all of a sudden become a better player and outplay only you. If they change their game based on your decision, it will likely be in your best interest.

People often worry that one of their actions will cause people to start "taking shots at them." My response is, "So?" This applies more to cash games, where there is time to recognize this behavior, at which point it becomes +++EV, but it can still apply at a final table. When a lot of money is at stake people are less likely to f around. If people being mad at you is a bad thing, you should start hating all your opponents.

That said, in a big tournament, I would gladly give up a little EV for a guaranteed payout. For example, if I was heads up with a 2:1 chip lead with the blinds large, I'd try to get a good chunk of the remaining money, but if 50k was at stake, and my opponent would only agree on an even chop, I'd probably do it. If there was a HU SnG that I could sign up for that costs 25k to get in and I get 30bb to my opponents 15bb, I wouldn't do it.

I'm very surprised that there aren't chops at every big buy in tournament, especially the WSOP. Perhaps there are chops and we just don't hear about it because the TV networks want to keep it exciting. I may post about this in the WPT forum.

[LImitPlayer]

I've chopped in a MTT before and I would do it again in a heartbeat, although it depends on the deal and the player I was playing against. I've also refused to chop as well

I chopped once 60-40 in a $200 live 20 player mini tourney where only 1st place paid out. I took the 40% even tho I was a slight chip leader HU.

The player I was playing against was a local pro whos game was light years beyond mine. We both knew this and I decided 40% was better than 0

I also refused to chop in a PokerStars tourney HU when I was behind in chips against a player who I knew I could outplay.

[tek]

One consideration is game theory. Are the one or two other players asking for a deal because they are afraid to play it out and want a guaranteed payoff? In that case if you think you are atleast equal in ability to them and have been getting decent cards, I'd refuse a deal just to put psychological pressure on them.

[captZEEbo1]

I don't know if I made my original question clear or not, but nobody has really addressed it yet.

Assuming you have a fair deal or maybe even slightly better than fair (based on ICM or something), could refusing to chop be -EV b/c opponents would be playing differently to get you out faster? Or would it be +EV b/c opponents were playing differently (aka poorly) to get you out faster?

[fnord_too]

Chopping is purely a variance reducing move (or should be). Look at some things like the independant chip model (check the STT FAQ for a link to it) and understand what a fair deal is. The blind to stack ratio gets so large that luck plays a much bigger factor in the late going than you may realize. Also, if you know what constitutes a fair deal, you will know when you are getting the best of it (Lee Jones talks about some deals, say in a three way chop, where the short stack takes LESS than what third pays!)

Another alternative is to make a save. Everyone locks up some amount of money and plays for the rest. Say payouts are 150K, 85K, 55K, 35K, 25K (which I think adds to $350K), maybe you deal for 300K (not necessarily an even split) and play for the remaining 50K.

There has been a lot of discussion and debate about this on the boards. Also, I think there is a section on it in TPFAP. (Having said all this, I have never been offered or initiated a deal, but the highest payout for first at a final table I have been at has been in the 25K range, and those not live nor on PS where deals are easier to enforce.)

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I made my original question clear or not, but nobody has really addressed it yet.

Assuming you have a fair deal or maybe even slightly better than fair (based on ICM or something), could refusing to chop be -EV b/c opponents would be playing differently to get you out faster? Or would it be +EV b/c opponents were playing differently (aka poorly) to get you out faster?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think people may be pissed at you, and may play more passively against each other if you are a short stack (thinking when you go they can deal, so why risk things). You are a big NL player, so I doubt people possibly tilting against you will lower your EV. It will probalby increase both your EV and variance.

[DonButtons]

Captzeebo,

I think since you posted in this forum, there is another reason why chops can become more +EV because of the psychology value of money of your opponents.

Lets say, its 3 to 5 handed, and everyone but you wants to chop and your top 2-3 in chips, instead of declining, this is the time to step it up and not answer back to their chat while playing very aggressive, raising and reraising preflop.

Once in awhile throw in a hello? in the chat, and this will totoally throw them way off their game, it works because there trying to get a chop in while not losing chips, so this is the perfect time to get their chips.

Also, chops vs the right opponents and it bad structures at the end are never bad, specially b/c usually your opponents want to chop so bad that if you throw in that you want more, they usually will split it between themselves to pay you extra to accept the chop. So always want more, specially online.

In ring games I always am one of the first guys to look at my cards. So if they ask me to chop and my hand isnt very good for HU, I'll accept. But if its good HU, I wont chop with them and I'll put a raise in. Some poor players at the table comment on how its self-serving, and it completely is. But I play for myself, not my opponents. If they are at sitting at my table, and I have the opportunity to win their chips, im taking it.