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  #21  
Old 08-31-2005, 10:32 PM
Redd Redd is offline
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Default Re: Call this river with 88?

Yeah, I was actually calling grjr's 55 play aggressive, and saying that Mr. 88's play may have been justified with a read.
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  #22  
Old 08-31-2005, 10:36 PM
grjr grjr is offline
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Default Re: Coming clean

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Oh, I wanted to add that I'm pretty sure the majority of my successful semi-bluff C/Rs have been folds on the river.

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you say that you put him on a high [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]... if he has nothing but a high heart and he is capable of an iota of thought he is going to check behind you on the turn and take the free card.

by checking the turn, you allow him the choice to either value bet or take free cards with a draw, which is why in my second post in this thread i asked why would the guy with 88 check behind on the turn (he doesn't have a draw and he is probably ahead).

once he bets the turn in position after raising preflop and the flop, i really discount the chance that he has a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. the time he actually does have a good chance of having such a hand (or overcards w/o a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - a lot of players will raise with black AK on this flop) is when he checks behind on the turn. therefore, you won't be able to semi-bluff.

you say that you thought he called the check raise with a high heart, but i think you should pay more attention to why he bet the turn in the first place.

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I KNEW I should have been clearer on that. When I said high heart I also meant a PAIR with a heart like I said in my other post. I really did think he had a pair and I really did think I could fold him on the river. When I saw the 88 with no heart I couldn't believe he called down.

I've posted a couple of hands like this (that I lost) in the last month or two and maybe you remember that and assume this play isn't working well for me. The thing is, I don't post all the ones where it DOES work. It works well enough that I'm actually very surprised at the times it doesn't work and those are the ones I post here to see if I was right that the majority of people would fold in those particular situations. If people fold only 20% of the time I'm still making money and they fold much more than that.
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  #23  
Old 08-31-2005, 10:44 PM
grjr grjr is offline
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Default Re: Coming clean

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IMO the turn check/raise semi-bluff is a big time sucker play. This certainly isn't the time for it as you would have either check/raised, check/called or bet-3bet the flop with a flush draw. Also the villian will oftentimes have a big overpair here and call you down in a heart beat.

Brad

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Like I was telling Myles I'm very surprised when the turn semi-bluff C/R doesn't work so I'm confident that it's working much more often than I need for it to be making money.

The times it doesn't work it still may pay for itself later since I won't use it at that table again but people will be more inclined to call my legitament check/raises.

In this particular hand it only cost me one extra BB because I would have called the turn with the draw and called the river anyway being heads up and having the pair. The advertising value was lost though since I left immediately after. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #24  
Old 08-31-2005, 10:50 PM
grjr grjr is offline
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Default Re: Call this river with 88?

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Yeah the river is an auto call. Calling the turn check/raise and folding the river UI is terrible poker. Calling the turn check/raise and river bet is questionable poker but nowhere near as bad as if you fold on this river card.

I would fold to the turn check/raise.

Brad

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I thought I saw this somewhere. In your other post you say that a semi-bluff is a bad play here and yet you would have folded the winner if I were playing against you. I guess it must not be THAT bad a play then. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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  #25  
Old 08-31-2005, 11:21 PM
Redd Redd is offline
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Default Re: Call this river with 88?

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[ QUOTE ]
Yeah the river is an auto call. Calling the turn check/raise and folding the river UI is terrible poker. Calling the turn check/raise and river bet is questionable poker but nowhere near as bad as if you fold on this river card.

I would fold to the turn check/raise.

Brad

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I thought I saw this somewhere. In your other post you say that a semi-bluff is a bad play here and yet you would have folded the winner if I were playing against you. I guess it must not be THAT bad a play then. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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All this proves is that a semi-bluff c/r may be a good line against Shillx. I'm guessing that your opponent was no gerber baby.
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  #26  
Old 09-01-2005, 02:16 AM
Shillx Shillx is offline
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Default Re: Call this river with 88?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah the river is an auto call. Calling the turn check/raise and folding the river UI is terrible poker. Calling the turn check/raise and river bet is questionable poker but nowhere near as bad as if you fold on this river card.

I would fold to the turn check/raise.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I saw this somewhere. In your other post you say that a semi-bluff is a bad play here and yet you would have folded the winner if I were playing against you. I guess it must not be THAT bad a play then. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Well I was taking the view that you had the 88 and a donk was the turn check/raiser. If I had the 88 and you were the other dude, I would never fold since there is no way you are playing a hand that beats 88 here often enough for me not to call down. If the turn c/r'er was a bad player then I would fold.

Brad
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