Call this river with 88? - Page 2

VoraciousReader · #11 08-31-2005, 08:06 PM

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Hero has only played 10 hands at this table and villain is unknown previously. This is the only hand Villain has played so far.

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Well, quick, call down and get a read, you may not get another chance! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

So much could be going on here...Villain could be a TAG bluffing at us, Villain could be getting cold-decked and overplaying out of frustration, Villain could have the goods...pot is not that large. I let it go and wait for a better opportunity.

But I've been known to be weak/tight, so take that into consideration.

grjr · #12 08-31-2005, 08:53 PM

Ok, I'll come clean on this hand now and let you know that I was the villain in this hand with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I had just played long enough to clear my 5 hours of bonus on Totalbet and this was my last orbit. It pisses me off when I whiff off an hours worth of bonus on one hand so I wanted to see if I was at least thinking clearly on the turn check/raise.

When the [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hit the turn I figured it was a good time for a semi-bluff. Many people recommend betting out as the bluff but I think it's more realistic with the C/R. When the actual villain called the turn raise I figured he had a pair with a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I could still fold him on the river if a non-heart hit.

I was shocked when he called and even more shocked when I saw what he had. I figure that less than 10% of the normal Crypto 1/2 players call down with that. Just my luck I ran into one of that 10%. On the bright side I did still make $100 plus the bonus money and to be honest it wasn't by limping in with 55. I should have just folded that preflop and went on my way.

Cryptologic 1.00/2.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, Button raises, SB calls, 1 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.00 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

River: (10.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB.
Results in white below:
Hero has 5d 5h (A Pair of Fives, Jack high)
Button has 8d 8c (A Pair of Eights, Jack high)
Button wins 11.88 BB.

Redd · #13 08-31-2005, 09:43 PM

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yeah i need a read to not fold that turn.

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As an aside to the results, if you were consistently playing this aggressively that might be enough read to justify a calldown.

VoraciousReader · #14 08-31-2005, 09:59 PM

Aha, we did have a tricky villain. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But, given that I have no way of knowing that at the table, I would still fold.

I am curious as to why you bet the river, though? (I hope it's not being results-oriented...)

grjr · #15 08-31-2005, 10:00 PM

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yeah i need a read to not fold that turn.

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As an aside to the results, if you were consistently playing this aggressively that might be enough read to justify a calldown.

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No, what I said before was the truth. Villain (8,8) only had 10 hands at the table and I hadn't played any since he joined. I was playing careful because I didn't want to whiff off any money before I quit. Oops. I only played the 55 because I was going to fold without a set. Damned straight draw sucked me in. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

milesdyson · #16 08-31-2005, 10:03 PM

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yeah i need a read to not fold that turn.

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As an aside to the results, if you were consistently playing this aggressively that might be enough read to justify a calldown.

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what? this aggressively? the guy simply raised after two limpers with a good hand and raised a very draw happy flop and continued betting a relatively safe turn card.

he should have folded to the turn c/r, but the "real hero" in this hand should not try to bluff against players he doesn't know.

grjr · #17 08-31-2005, 10:10 PM

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Aha, we did have a tricky villain. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

But, given that I have no way of knowing that at the table, I would still fold.

I am curious as to why you bet the river, though? (I hope it's not being results-oriented...)

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Almost any time I semi-bluff C/R the turn I follow with a bet on the river. This may not be "correct" but I feel like I have a good enough fold % record on the river to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately, I have no way of checking this in PT.

In this case, when he called the turn I figured he must have a big [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and therefore would fold to the river bet.

Oh, I wanted to add that I'm pretty sure the majority of my successful semi-bluff C/Rs have been folds on the river. These are all at .50/1 and 1/2 though. I would imagine more people would fold on the turn at higher limits.

grjr · #18 08-31-2005, 10:15 PM

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yeah i need a read to not fold that turn.

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As an aside to the results, if you were consistently playing this aggressively that might be enough read to justify a calldown.

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what? this aggressively? the guy simply raised after two limpers with a good hand and raised a very draw happy flop and continued betting a relatively safe turn card.

he should have folded to the turn c/r, but the "real hero" in this hand should not try to bluff against players he doesn't know.

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By "aggressively" I think he was referring to my actual turn C/R.

As for not bluffing against unknowns; it was a semi-bluff, thank you. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

milesdyson · #19 08-31-2005, 10:17 PM

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Oh, I wanted to add that I'm pretty sure the majority of my successful semi-bluff C/Rs have been folds on the river.

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you say that you put him on a high [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]... if he has nothing but a high heart and he is capable of an iota of thought he is going to check behind you on the turn and take the free card.

by checking the turn, you allow him the choice to either value bet or take free cards with a draw, which is why in my second post in this thread i asked why would the guy with 88 check behind on the turn (he doesn't have a draw and he is probably ahead).

once he bets the turn in position after raising preflop and the flop, i really discount the chance that he has a hand like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. the time he actually does have a good chance of having such a hand (or overcards w/o a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] - a lot of players will raise with black AK on this flop) is when he checks behind on the turn. therefore, you won't be able to semi-bluff.

you say that you thought he called the check raise with a high heart, but i think you should pay more attention to why he bet the turn in the first place.

Shillx · #20 08-31-2005, 10:20 PM

IMO the turn check/raise semi-bluff is a big time sucker play. This certainly isn't the time for it as you would have either check/raised, check/called or bet-3bet the flop with a flush draw. Also the villian will oftentimes have a big overpair here and call you down in a heart beat.

Brad