$25 NL PF steal, is this really dumb?

[vulturesrow]

2 callers is worth a continuation bet. 3 or more, your done. In answer to your question about firing a second barrel, the answer is, sometimes. Obviously its situational. SSNL rewards by the book play. Your winrate will never reach its optimal level if you only do this. And if you are serious about moving up in stakes, you might as well start developing this skill now. I agree that is probably does work better at 6-max. But there are places where it is clearly applicable in full-ring as well.

[yellowjack]

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I wouldn't, as your poll required, call your steal a donk play, but I think you should have waited for a different opportunity.

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Hrmm alright, but only if you come up with a situation where this opportunity presents itself. I lack the imagination.

My point was that unless your ep players are completely without understanding of the game, it is best to credit them with decent hands when they limp. Decent = "I'm calling/raising that pretty obvious steal." I generally don't try a steal when UTG or UTG+1 is in. They seem to call more often than they fold, and then you have a whole new set of problems.

On the other hand, when one or two LP players have limped, a steal like the one you pulled here can pay off.

Even more fun is when you are on the button and CO is 1st in and brings it for a raise--if he's the sort to steal or make a positional raise, reraising CO often works (and virtually guarantees that the blinds will fold out unless they have a seriously legitimate hand that can stand cold calling a raise and a reraise).

Long answer, sorry. I just think these other plays have been more +EV for me than stealing when UTG and UTG+1 have limped.

[MTBlue]

Can you play on the flop? Will the hand hit a certain type of flop very hard? I steal all the time but you need a hand that will hit a certain type of flop very hard b/c you must be able to play the hand against a slowplayed overpair. J6 doesn't meet my steal requirements. I think the idea of stealing the limpers is a good one but you need a hand that can make a big hand 42s or 98o b/c some of the time you will have to play the hand after the flop. BTW calling a small all-in bet with random two getting 2:1 on your money is an excellent image play.

[NYCNative]

I agree with this logic, somewhat, although my requirements aren't that stringent. My minimum requirements for steals are Ax, Kx, Qxs, JTo, T9o and suited connectors or two-gappers from 45 up. Any worse than this and I probably don't ever. And of course there are legitimate hands that I raise with.

The low-end on the list above depends on reads - if the blinds are super LAGgy and heavly into defending their blinds I have to tighten up the requirements. I find that by having some standards that I don't steal so much that I am percieved as a bully which can lead to resistance that I don't need.

[SonOfWestwood]

I'll do this in the live games (NL100) I play if 1 or 2 weak/passive players have limped and I haven't played a pot for a while. If I get a caller pre-flop, I'm often able to take it down when I'm checked to on the flop. Because they're so weak and passive, I'm not too worried about check raises and I can get away from my hand if they bet out. And every now and then I luck in to some powerful hand like trips or 2 pair and can take down a good sized pot. It's been pretty successful for me.

But, in the NL25 I play online, I don't generally do this because I don't think NL25 online players pay much attention to how tight I am and that I haven't played a pot in a while.

I like this play a lot better with a small pair or suited connectors so that your steal can turn into gold on the flop - with a hand like J6o you are really just hoping no one calls preflop - even if you flop JJx you could easily be in trouble and get stacked by QJ, KJ, or JT.

[JobyWan]

I don't agree with taking even medium risks to steal blinds. As you said you were stealing, I'd disagree whole-heartedly with this move. It's not at tournament..why risk it? Here's why: You do this to change your image and hope opps get fed up and call right when your big hand does come around. You do this with medium suited connectors because you win two ways..you represent the ace that hits on the flop as the opps expect you raised with an ace, or you get lucky and hit something sneaky and stack him. Raising two limpers with J6o is only going to leave you with one option: blind aggression. Your continuation bet getting called even 1/3 of the time after your raise must certainly be -EV compared to the little pots you accumulate only until they catch on. Don't think they won't make notes about your play and bust you with next time you see them at the table.

The main reason this is a huge mistake, in my book, is that you only can ride a tight image so long. You've got one or two shots a having any bet respected before they start getting suspicious. Why not wait and use one of your free passes in a $20+ pot when you can represent the nuts as opposed to wasting it on a few limps when you don't really know where you stand.

JobyWan

[vulturesrow]

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I don't agree with taking even medium risks to steal blinds. As you said you were stealing, I'd disagree whole-heartedly with this move. It's not at tournament..why risk it?

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Im not sure what the point of the question is since you answered it. Granted, there isnt much of a way to improve J6o but in some respects that makes it even better, as you arent going to get wedded to your hand if the flop hits it a little, as you might be tempted to do with suited connectors.

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Your continuation bet getting called even 1/3 of the time after your raise must certainly be -EV compared to the little pots you accumulate only until they catch on.

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This is almost completely wrong. He only needs to win the pot 1/3 of the time with a standard half pot continuation bet just to break even. Anything more than that is gravy, plus its great for his image, as you correctly pointed out.

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Don't think they won't make notes about your play and bust you with next time you see them at the table.


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Very few players at SSNL are making these sorts of observations. And it is pretty obvious to figure out who is smart enough to catch onto your play.

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The main reason this is a huge mistake, in my book, is that you only can ride a tight image so long. You've got one or two shots a having any bet respected before they start getting suspicious. Why not wait and use one of your free passes in a $20+ pot when you can represent the nuts as opposed to wasting it on a few limps when you don't really know where you stand.

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Or why not ride a loose image (which weak players notice more than a tight image) into a huge pot when no one believes you have the goods and you get two callers with all your money in the pot and triple up.

I think the point that a lot of people are missing is that when you make moves like this, you are controlling the action, and you are making people react to you. This is where you want to be when you are playing NL.

[srm80]

i generally dont like making plays like this at NL25, i would rather steal after the flop. most people don't really pay attention to your image, and limping isn't much different than calling a raise, they just want to see a flop with some sutied cards. they don't care about winrate, position, -+EV moves, and they really don't care about your image for more than the next few hands. At least this has been my experience. If you are a solid player, than I think it would be more profitable to get into flops with the small stakes players and simply outplay them after the flop, where you can make the most money. I am not completely against a pre-flop steal either, as long as it is done in moderation. I think what would have made this play more valuable is if you had shown down your hand after everyone folded, then used the advertising for a later hand.