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  #21  
Old 02-06-2005, 12:43 AM
Al P Al P is offline
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Default Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat

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If I have 88/99/TT and the flop is KKQ and the flop is checked - on the turn (undercard) I'm going to bet and maybe even raise even though I'm drawing dead. With PF strength and a bet on the flop I'm out of the hand.

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Why wouldn't you bet your 88/99/TT into this flop?

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There was a PF raise by a person with a low VP$IP (Hero). What range of hands can I put him on? Not many that I'm ahead of.
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  #22  
Old 02-06-2005, 12:54 AM
Catt Catt is offline
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Default Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat

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If I have 88/99/TT and the flop is KKQ and the flop is checked - on the turn (undercard) I'm going to bet and maybe even raise even though I'm drawing dead. With PF strength and a bet on the flop I'm out of the hand.

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Why wouldn't you bet your 88/99/TT into this flop?

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There was a PF raise by a person with a low VP$IP (Hero). What range of hands can I put him on? Not many that I'm ahead of.

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But, if that's the case, why would you bet and raise the turn? You yourself would be fine checking through the flop to "keep customers" on the turn if you had Hero's hand, but you would also intrepret an opponent's check as weakness that justifies going nuts on the turn via betting and raising?

Look at it from another direction. When you bet into this flop, you probably scare the crap out of everyone else. You hold a strong hand, and are behind only AA, a K (how likely?) or a Q. When you get raised on the flop, you can release or call, depending on your read. Whatever happens, you're at least collecting better information at the cost of a SB rather than a BB on the turn when you have only one more card to see, and you don't run the risk of getting rolled bysomeone who would slowplay this flop in the way you suggest. You almost certainly thin the field with a flop bet or get feedback that let's you fold more confidently. If the turn card comes a blank and you bet again, are the gutshots (AJ) sticking around?

I may be effing this play up considerably, but if I'm holding 88/99/TT I'm almost certainly betting this flop (and will certainly bet if I play after pf-raiser's check).
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  #23  
Old 02-06-2005, 12:58 AM
TomBrooks TomBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat

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would anyone who doesn't hold a K or a Q be more likely to call anything for a BB on the turn that they wouldn't call a SB for on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Catt,

Edit: I didn't read the other responses that came between your question and this until after I wrote this.

Occassionally, I've seen the whole table or almost the whole table fold to a bet on the turn after a paired flop was checked all the way through. Most players on the turn are still afraid of someone slowplaying trips from the flop and from what I've seen, rightfully so, because most players who make trips on the flop don't bet them until the turn anyway. The level of fear is usually less though, and the turn card usually improves some players' hands so they will be more inclined to call a bet.

Also, loose players and calling stations (obviously) are more likely to call than tight players, so you can take into account the texture of the table your at. And I think if tight players see loose players helping to build up the pot, it gives them a little more incentive to stay in also. It kind of sucks when almost everyone at the table is tight and you make a bet with a monster hand and everyone folds.

There can be a lot of danger in slowplaying though. If I make a boat on the flop and the rank which I have three of, is the lower of the two ranks, I bet because someone can make the higher boat and I want to make them pay for taking that shot. I had that happen a couple of times to me when I slowplayed a boat, and it sucks. (They may have stayed in the hand even if I bet the flop though, I have to look at that some more. )

Similarly, if I flop trips and the board is only two suited, I will usually bet and if I lose almost all the callers, so be it; but I won't let flush draws and backdoor flush draws hang around for free. The less people seeing the flop, the less chance for a flush draw to be out there though; so if I have only a couple of opponents *and* the pot is small, I might take a chance checking a two suited flop.

With the strength of a hand like the OP had, I don't think you have to worry much about getting beat, and you can use whatever strategy you think will work to get the most money into the pot.

- TomBk

Warning/Disclaimer: beginner writing
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  #24  
Old 02-06-2005, 01:00 AM
Al P Al P is offline
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Default Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat

If I'm in hand against hero (I'm a villian remember), I'm in EP and the raise was after me (made by hero).

You're going to bet into a tight PF raiser on this flop?
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2005, 01:03 AM
Catt Catt is offline
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Default Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat

Tom - good thought process. No need to identify yourself as a beginner at the end of each post -- beginner or experienced expert, if you offer up bad advice you're almost certain to be called on it and if you offer up good advice no one cares what your experience level is.

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Most players on the turn are still afraid of someone slowplaying trips from the flop and from what I've seen, rightfully so, because most players who make trips on the flop don't bet them until the turn anyway.

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This strikes me as a good reason to bet my trips on the flop and then bet them again on the turn (and in fact I will need a very good reason not to bet my trips on the flop).
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  #26  
Old 02-06-2005, 01:13 AM
Catt Catt is offline
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Default Re: Fast or slow - flopped boat

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You're going to bet into a tight PF raiser on this flop?

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With 88/99/TT, yes, I will. This flop either hit Hero or not. If it hit him, he's either going to smoothcall or raise. If it missed him, he's going to be crapping his pants that I bet into the pf-raiser.

Assume the flop hit him. If he raises, I can release (or in certain cirtcumstances I might call one back and check-fold UI on the turn).

Assume the flop missed him. If he still calls my flop bet and I bet again on the turn, what is he going to do? I have the best hand and he likely has a gutshot draw. If it missed him and he raises on a bluff, I'm in the same position as I was when I assumed it hit him (fold or call, check-fold UI, all for the cost of 1 SB).

Assume the flop hit him and he smooth-calls my bet on the flop and the turn because he's tricky. Now my river decision is tougher, and I'm either bet-folding or check-calling. Either way, I paid 2 BBs and 1 SB to see the showdown. Your line has you paying 1 or 2 BBs on the turn, and after that action I presume you're putting in at least one more on the river? Even if you don't 3-bet the turn after you're raised in your line, I risk an extra SB in total for the reward of possibly winning the pot at the turn. Make sense or no?
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