Deepish KQ Hand

#1 12-21-2005, 01:06 PM

Party 5+R. I was moved to this table recently, but played with Villain for a little while during the rebuy period. He seemed kind of unwilling to gamble then, would play passively with AK/AQ type hands until he was made. I wasn't really gambling it up, but I was raising big with a variety of hands, including most broadway. Any time I played strong after the flop, I showed down a big one. But that was during the rebuy period, haven't played with him since.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) converter

MP1 (t6705)
MP2 (t13815)
MP3 (t11190)
CO (t4135)
Button (t5825)
SB (t6895)
BB (t1405)
Hero (t10135)
UTG+1 (t6295)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t400, 1 fold, MP1 calls t400, 4 folds, SB calls t325, 1 fold.

Flop: (t1350) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t900, MP1 raises to t1800, SB folds, Hero calls t900.

Turn: (t4950) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: (t4950) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t4505 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: t9455

Regarding the small pre-flop raise: my objective was to avoid building a big pot out of position, and hopefully get it heads up or take down a multi-way pot if I make top pair. The river puts me behind one of the few hands I thought I might be ahead of on the flop: QJ.

prk · #2 12-21-2005, 01:13 PM

That turn check by the Villan seems odd to me. Based on your read, I put him on the nut flush draw, possibly KQ for the split pot.

I lead out on the river for 2,000. dont give him a chance to steal this pot with a bluff on the river.

ps..I find myself making these very same laydowns in similar tournaments, which is totally going against my own advice in this post. weird...

Dave D · #3 12-21-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party 5+R. I was moved to this table recently, but played with Villain for a little while during the rebuy period. He seemed kind of unwilling to gamble then, would play passively with AK/AQ type hands until he was made. I wasn't really gambling it up, but I was raising big with a variety of hands, including most broadway. Any time I played strong after the flop, I showed down a big one. But that was during the rebuy period, haven't played with him since.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (9 handed) converter

MP1 (t6705)
MP2 (t13815)
MP3 (t11190)
CO (t4135)
Button (t5825)
SB (t6895)
BB (t1405)
Hero (t10135)
UTG+1 (t6295)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t400, 1 fold, MP1 calls t400, 4 folds, SB calls t325, 1 fold.

Flop: (t1350) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t900, MP1 raises to t1800, SB folds, Hero calls t900.

Turn: (t4950) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: (t4950) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets t4505 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: t9455

Regarding the small pre-flop raise: my objective was to avoid building a big pot out of position, and hopefully get it heads up or take down a multi-way pot if I make top pair. The river puts me behind one of the few hands I thought I might be ahead of on the flop: QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, why are you raising KQ? Why are you raising KQ UTG? I don't really like that, unless the table has folded to you a lot, even still I'm deathly afraid of KQ, at any point of a tourney except very late stages. I just don't think this is neccessary, ESPECIALLY in that position. Gah.

I would probably have limped hoping for a str8 draw situation.

I hate his min raise on the flop. To me, these kinds of raises (always, any min raise like that) indicate a monster. A two pair at worst and very often a set. He's trying to maximize how much you pay him off, especially at the lower buy in tournaments. He's basically saying "please keep calling me, I don't care".

This is also why I hate KQ, it's so vulnerable in these situations.

His turn check is suspicious. But to me it sounds like he got a little FPS. This goes right in line with his river push. He's thinking "I don't want my customer folding, so I'll check here and make him think he can win, then I'm gonna push and he's gonna get pissed and call".

This is exactly why I hate KQ. You can't be comfortable with it, even if you make TPGK. Would you ever make this fold with KA (if the K had come on the flop instead of a Q)? I wouldn't.

I'm sorry if I come off as talking down to you. I just really see these kinds of mistakes as really below you man.

JustPlayingSmart · #4 12-21-2005, 02:42 PM

Villain's play in this hand is really weird. His min raise on the flop followed by the turn check makes me think he either has a weak queen or a draw. With a weak queen he might raise the flop because he figures he's winning, but then when you call, he gets scared and shuts down. With a draw, he might be raising for a free card (not a typically play in no limit with these stacks, but on Party I don't see it as out of the question). Draws are clubs and 56. If he had clubs, he would probably check the turn. If he had 56 he might check as well, figuring you are not super strong and can't call a turn bet. When he pushes the river, I think he has QJ a lot here. But I also think he could have clubs here. You're getting 2-1 on the call, so if I had any inclination that he had the capability of bluffing here I would call. Otherwise I would fold.

I think if I played the hand, I'd probably push this on the flop in a $5 Party rebuy. I think you get called by hands you beat and draws.

Like I said, if this has guy a missed-draw bluff in his arsenal, this is a standard spot for it, and I would call here, prepared to be behind QJ frequently, but not 2/3 of the time. I'd be surprised if he had a hand that beat you other than QJ or 56, but on Party, who knows.

EDIT: As I think about this more, I have to throw JJ out there as a strong possibility. Here might be his thinking: OOh, JJ. NICE. UTG raise, gay, I guess I better just call. Flop Qxx. Not bad, 1 overcard, he probably has AK. I'll just min raise to see where I'm at. He called, crap. I guess I better shut down. I'll check the turn. River J. Woot woot. I bet if he has a queen he'll call a big river bet. I'll push, that way he might think I'm bluffing. Boo. He folded. Guess he really did have AK. Oh well.

This makes more sense since you seem to imply that he is fairly tight (maybe I am misinterpreting passive as tight here), who I don't really see coldcalling 56 much if ever, and QJ not that much either.

DDBeast · #5 12-21-2005, 02:56 PM

The way he played it it looks like a draw (ATs, AJs,JTs). He may have had a monster, he may have spiked a Jack on the river or he may be shoving with air, but after that turn check I think you're ahead so I would check to induce a possible bluff and call the push.

illini43 · #6 12-21-2005, 03:11 PM

I agree with Dave D's post. I find KQ a 'yucky' hand as well, especially to raise with UTG. Especially in EP, I almost always fold this hand because of the uncertainty that goes along with playing the hand. This hand is a perfect example of a tricky situation that KQ brings up.

You are out of position and have flopped top pair second kicker, so you bet out...and then get min-raised. At the low levels, I have found out that almost all of the time, the min-raise (especially later in a tournament) is a bet that many players will make simply to try and get more chips out of you. Usually, in this situation, TP2K is beat either by a hand like AQ or a set.

I also agree with Dave's post about his river push. A ton of players will just bet it all hoping that they get a crying call without really thinking about how to extract the most chips.

Colombo · #7 12-21-2005, 03:17 PM

I call this on the river, looks like a flush draw to me.