A flop call

[Aces McGee]

Thinking about my postflop play today. Discussed this one with a friend. We disagreed somewhat, so I'm posting it. Apologies if it's routine.

Party Poker $2/$4 Texas Hold 'Em. Full table. No reads or notes on any players, except that none of the players have done anything noteworthy. Lots of limping preflop, lots of calling all the way down with middle or bottom pair, etc etc.

CO has just sat down and posted.

UTG folds, but the next four players limp. CO-1 now raises, the CO (poster) folds, I call two cold on the button with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB folds, BB calls, one of the limpers folds (!) but the other three call.

6 to the flop for ~14.5 SBs.

9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG+1 bets, both of the remaining two limpers call, CO-1 (preflop raiser) calls. I call.

Comments?

-McGee

[mistrpug]

I raise here. You want to make the draws pay. UTG + 1 is the only one who showed any strength. Even if he reraises, you should knock out a few players and/or build a hug pot which is nice since you're probably ahead and have a decent draw to a full.

[slogger]

Not sure what your reasoning was here. You have a big hand (only two hands that are ahead of you right now) and even though you're vulnerable, 10 outs to a redraw if someone picks up a straight or a flush on the turn (you'll have a full house or better by the river 1/3 of the time).

My only guess is that you've read SSHE and you're waiting until the turn to protect your hand, but I think this would be a fairly severe misapplication of that principle, as you're holding is too strong not to raise for value on the flop (and even if you had a more vulnerable hand that you'd want to protect, you are not in good position relative to the flop bettor to make this work).

Raise the flop and cap it if it's 3 bets back to you.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
My only guess is that you've read SSHE and you're waiting until the turn to protect your hand

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't have my copy with me. Doesn't SSH also say something about declining to raise the flop so as to encourage the flop bettor to bet again? Trapping the whole field for 2BB on the turn is better than trapping them for 1 more SB on the flop and 1BB on the turn... if you think that a flop raise will get UTG+1 to cool off.

[Trix]

I raise the flop since there is a shitload of cards I cant raise on the turn and I´m 2:1 to make a boat or better by the river.

[lil']

You're giving up a sure 2 BB here by not raising. Is it worth the risk? What if an 8, 10 or 5 falls on the turn?

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
What if an 8, 10 or 5 falls on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I'll be glad I didn't raise the flop.

-McGee

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I'll be glad I didn't raise the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

So you have AA and limp in LP after many limpers. The blinds complete and the flop comes something like:

8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Is this good reasoning not to raise preflop??

Haupt_234

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
So you have AA and limp in LP after many limpers. The blinds complete and the flop comes something like:

8 9 10

Is this good reasoning not to raise preflop??


[/ QUOTE ]

Do I have the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

No, of course it isn't. But in this case, I see nothing wrong with waiting until the turn to raise for value, with the added bonus of being able to reevaluate after the turn card and maybe even being able to protect my hand if I still like it after the turn.

Trix's point is a good one, though. That has me thinking.

-McGee

[lil']

Here's another thought. How many times does the turn bring an overcard (or another scare card) that stops UTG +1 from betting? Your position to the aggressor is good now, but on the turn it may not be, or they all may check to you. On the flop you have them trapped for multiple bets with the likely best hand. That situation may change drastically by the time the next card falls.