How to get broke at NL...

[bholdr]

I'm no longer a beginner, but this hand made me feel like one:

Party NL $100 $.50/1 blinds, loose aggressive table (avg pot: $35!). this is the first, and unfourtunatly the last hand i played. I have no reads, but the table is generally loose and passive.

I am in the BB and get A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

five people limp for $1

I raise to $6

there is an EP caller and a LP caller. pot is @$22

Flop is K 7 2 one spade

I decide that i want the pot right now, and bet out- $25

EP folds, LP raises to $50, I push.

thoughts?

[Student]

You'll have to admit there are one heck of a lot of possible hands better than yours, with that flop! But when you attempted to buy the pot with your bet, this could have precipitated LP buying it too (jealousy, maybe?), and possibly even with a hand inferior to yours. You have high pair with Ace kicker, which is nice. LP could have Kings too, with another pair, or even a set of 2s or 7s. Big slick is a crazy hand, and many have experienced disappointment, often coming from way out in left field.

I'm still a beginner though, but I'm trying to help...

Dave

[bholdr]

here's the problems with my play on this hand:

A: i definitly should've raised a little more PF- i'm just begging for low pairs to call

B: who's gonna call that flop bet with a hand i can beat? KQ? That's the only one i can think of- and they likely wouldn't raise with that... the raggedy board with no draws on it kinda makes a semi-bluff very unlikely... hands that can continue here? AA, KK, AK, KQ, 22, 77.... i can only beat one of them.

it's hard to lay down TPTK to a half-pot bet, though... sometimes you just gotta lose some money, i suppose.

anyone see a way to get away from this one? (i lost to 22, btw)

[bholdr]

this is getting frustrating. here's some trickiness that bit me in the ass- i should know better and just play ABC:

party $100 NL

I have @$270
villan has @$130

I am in MP and get AA, i limp, Button-villan raises to $5, I re-raise to $20, he calls. I am dancing in my chair

the flop is 99Q... i'm okay with that.

i check, he bets $30, i push, he calls.

once again, i can beat AQ and KK, but am beat by any hand with a nine in it (unlikely), and, what i should have seen, QQ.

i think these were my mistakes:

A: i should have come out with a raise PF- allowing him to re-raise and then i could push and likely take it, or run the hand with a huge advantage, instead of letting him see a flop with good implied odds.

B: checking the flop was terrible- when i do and he bets, i have no way to tell if it's a bluff, a standard bet with a Q, or a value bet with a monster. If i had bet out, he's pretty much gotta have a hand to make a play like that. thoughts?

oh well... i got it back, eventually. i think this is another 'you just gotta lose your stack once in a while' kinda hand.

this is why i hate NL. grrrrr. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]


here's an intresting one that just happened, same table:

I am in MP and get KK, i raise, get re-raised, i re-raise again, he pushes, i call. (i am thinking- 'gaddammit, he's got AA, geez, this happens waaaayyy too often, but you don't lay down KK, and them's the breaks.')

board comes: A 7 J J 3

he shows... KK! we split. ho-hum. you don't see that every day!

[smoore]

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anyone see a way to get away from this one? (i lost to 22, btw)

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and your answer:

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B: who's gonna call that flop bet with a hand i can beat? KQ? That's the only one i can think of- .

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I fold TPTK to this kind of action in NL just because of these situations. I bitch and moan about it considerably to my dogs before I do it. They never seem to understand my consternation. Those little bastards.

[bholdr]

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I fold TPTK to this kind of action in NL just because of these situations. I bitch and moan about it considerably to my dogs before I do it. They never seem to understand my consternation. Those little bastards.

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yes, i know, i know... this is a leak i have to work on. at NL$100 tables it's difficult, there are so many donks out there, and the table was so loose, i felt that a push is the most +EV move, long term. Facing aggression when i hold TPTK on a raggedy board gives me more trouble than any other situation.

I should get a dog.

[jb9]

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Facing aggression when i hold TPTK on a raggedy board gives me more trouble than any other situation.

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Sometimes you have to give up TPTK in NL unless you have some other draws. The aggression could be a bluff, but it often means a set.

This is where a read on your opponent is important, but I tend to play TPTK cautiously. If I get bluffed, well, so what. Sometimes I get bluffed. That's NL poker. Maybe next time he tries to bluff me, I'll have a set...

[SheridanCat]

Okay, no looking.

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I am in the BB and get A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

five people limp for $1

I raise to $6


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm definitely not a NL specialist, but if I get a hand like this in the BB, I often will just check if limped to. Especially with so many players limping. That's not my line in limit, but it usually is in NL.

AK is just a drawing hand - especially with that many people in the hand. Additionally, all those people limping in indicate that I may not have as many live cards as I'd like.

In NL, I tend to play this as a speculative hand. I want to trap with it if things fall my way.

You chased a lot of people out with the raise, which is fine if you intend to press the hand if you hit TPTK, but you've also built a pot that will be hard to get away from.

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Flop is K 7 2 one spade

I decide that i want the pot right now, and bet out- $25

EP folds, LP raises to $50, I push.


[/ QUOTE ]

We've probably all done this in NL - made a play we wished we could take back almost immediately. Sadly, this guy's raise along with his preflop play says "set of 7s" all over it. If he's bluffing here, or if he has a worse king, then be sure to make a note on him.

I'm a timid, nut-peddling NL player. I think it's a style that wins against the freewheeling players I see a lot. I also rarely play NL online, so I'm not sure how players there might differ from the B&M players I see. I prefer to play small pots with more players than go for the kill like this.

I think a better line would have been a continuation bet of about $10-$15 after the flop. If the pot is small, I feel I can still get away from it when he comes back over the top.

All in all, I'm rarely happy with TPTK in a large pot in NL hold'em. Did I mention I'm a nut-peddlar? I just read 2+2's Professional Dealer's Handbook and the glossary refers to people who only play very strong hands as "locksmiths". I guess that's me.

Regards,

T

[SheridanCat]

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A: i definitly should've raised a little more PF- i'm just begging for low pairs to call


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But with AKs against some low pairs, you have great equity - preflop. You raised 6x the big blind. How big do you have to raise, do you think, to chase out 77? Okay, 22 might have folded, but I would have thought your initial raise would have been good enough to fold that trash.

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B: who's gonna call that flop bet with a hand i can beat?


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Yep, which is why I advocate not going for the kill.

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it's hard to lay down TPTK to a half-pot bet, though... sometimes you just gotta lose some money, i suppose.

anyone see a way to get away from this one? (i lost to 22, btw)

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It depends on how deep the stacks are. If the stacks are deep, I can lay it down easily.

When I started playing NL, I quickly came to the conclusion that if I could not lay down TPTK, I couldn't play the game. I see so many players trap themselves with it. I honestly just think TPTK is a weak hand in NL.

I'm probably just a weak-tighty in NL, but I think it's a completely viable strategy in that game. I know it's also a boring strategy, but I think that if you find poker generally exciting, you're not playing it correctly.

Regards,

T

[Macedon]

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When I started playing NL, I quickly came to the conclusion that if I could not lay down TPTK, I couldn't play the game. I see so many players trap themselves with it. I honestly just think TPTK is a weak hand in NL.



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Totally agree with this. Similarly....When I get dealt pocket aces or kings I often say to myself [before the action begins] "Don't fall in love with your pair. It is JUST a pair."

I will not invest 1/2 of my stack or more with this type of hand UNLESS I know (with decent certainty) that I have my opponent beaten. Anything less is a serious leak in one's game and will be exploited by every set-farmer and implied odds chaser.