JJ for 4-bets?

[Softrock]

It's getting late in the local 40-80 game. I'm in the cutoff seat. UTG is a very fast and loose player who raises with any pair and calls to the river. He raises. UTG+1 is on tilt but is primarily a calling station and very passive - he makes it 3-bets (this means he probably has at least a decent hand). UTG+2 is a solid player who's been playing for 36 hours straight and I keep assuming his play has got to be suffering but I haven't seen it yet. He caps for 4-bets. No other callers, to me in cutoff with JJ.

Call or fold and why?

[JTG51]

Looks like an easy fold to me. You have a very passive player 3 betting and a solid player capping. You've got to assume the solid player knows the 3 bettor is passive, so he must be giving the passive player credit for a big hand. That didn't stop him from capping.

I think I'd fold JJ with just the very passive player 3 betting, nevermind the 4 bet from the solid player. Very passive players don't 3 bet TT or AK, otherwise they wouldn't be very passive.

[Jamie Collins]

I would fold. You won't flop a set and have it hold up often enough to make calling a +ev play. UTG tendencies help your cause but that's not enough. It's doubtful UTG+1 AND UTG+2 are both pulling Abdullian bank shots. Somebody's got you beat or you are very susceptible to the redraw.
Also, your hand is very difficult to play post-flop. The possibility of an error post-flop is high.

Jamie

[mikelow]

Fold for four bets. Jacks is in a bad spot here. You could be up against a bigger pair. Also, even if you have the best hand preflop, there is a 56% chance of an overcard which will likely give one of the steamers the best hand.

An easy fold, IMO.

[soda]

I would fold. In order to call a cap cold with JJ, I need strong evidence that the players are raising with garbage. I'm not convinced this is the case here.

The hand is riddled with problems when you have multiple raisers who are competent. Very difficult and expensive to find out where you are, but your hand is too vulnerable to play passively if you flop an overpair.

soda

[Softrock]

Well, I'm glad to see everyone so far agreed with me. I did fold. I understand the perils of being "results oriented" but results do make one stop to think. The three players saw the flop. It came 852, turn was a T, river was a Q. When the Q came I breathed a sigh of relief and now was certain if I wasn't already beat, that the overcard certainly beat me. Lo and behold - all three players had AK!! So JJ would have been good. However, even with those results I concluded after thinking further that a fold was still the right play. I'd almost have to put them on the scenario that existed for a call to be justified.

I just hate not even seeing the flop with JJ. However, my strategy of waiting for spots where I could be the aggressor in this game paid off well for the entire session.

Thanks to all for the feedback - it spelled any lingering doubts I had.

[Ed Miller]

I would fold. You've got a solid player willing to 4-bet... and the other two could have strong hands as well. Apart from taking them for a ride when you flop a set, you can't like your hand too much if rags flop.

[astroglide]

although folding is the right play, it's something i couldn't bring myself to do. while it's exceptionally rare that i have a cap coming at me in a non-crazy game, i'm certain i've never laid down jacks preflop in limit in my entire life.

somehow i'm able to make other preflop folds (like the 33 to a raise post a while back) a lot easier.

[deadbart]

Fold, but it's closer than a lot of the posters have indicated. There's a good chance that some of these guys have duplicated overcards, and you will get a huge payoff if you flop a set. But it IS 4 bets, and a significant amount of the time an overpair will be out there.

[Ray Zee]

if you have played much you would have folded jj and qq quite a few times and maybe kk once or twice before the flop. if you havent you have to seriously look at the other lower value hands that you may be playing when you shouldnt.