check-raised with TP3K

Che · #1 08-06-2005, 03:59 AM

Stars $33 Rebuy, Blinds 200/400 a25

Stacks in play are above average, but we are still far from the bubble.

2 folds, I open for 1200 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (24K), MP calls (19K), 2 folds, SB calls (28.5K), BB folds.

Only one orbit or so at this table. No read on either opponent. I took the blinds on the hand immediately before this with a 1200 raise. Otherwise, they have no read on me (as far as I know)

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (Pot=4200)

SB checks, I bet 3000, MP folds, SB raises to 11200. Hero…???

18400 in pot. 8200 to call. If I push, it’s 12K to him with over 38K in the pot.

MLG and I discussed this briefly. I’m interested in hearing what the rest of you think I should have done with this flop.

Thanks,
Che

Crispy · #2 08-06-2005, 04:07 AM

This is definitly a strange hand. With no read I fold. This is one of those, it all depends on the skill of your opponent kinda hands. If ur villian has the A with the higher kicker, I would expect him to wait till the turn to raise the pot. Sets and two pairs I see doing the same. Flush draws however might jamm this pot. Only way I see you winning this pot is actually to just call and get all ur chips in on a non heart turn. Another option might be to c/r all in on any nonscary turn, try to represent two pair or a set of your own.

I would have however waited a few more hands though before I started opening with A10s so I get a feel of the table and how tight everyone is. Just my two cents.

TomHimself · #3 08-06-2005, 04:25 AM

This is a tough spot, but I would push. I think that he has a flush draw and maybe even a pair and a flush draw like QJ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or QK[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] if that is the case it is 50/50 but with the extra money in the pot I would push

CardSharpCook · #4 08-06-2005, 04:25 AM

yeah, I agree with Crispy. I'll give another reason though. There is no reason for him to put you on a flush draw. With a hand that is beating you, there is no need to bet so aggressively right now. He is trying to bet you out of the pot. Of course, if he knows that you know that he knows there is no reason to overplay a strong hand right now... maybe he'll bet trying to trick you into calling with your TP. But then that is expecting a lot out of your opponent. Really, only a highly skilled player who respects you as a highly skilled player would make this move with a hand that beats you.... Or a very poor opponnent who just doesn't know any better. All else being equal, I like to give my opponents a little credit.

CSC

Likely hands include: AX, QX, [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

ekky · #5 08-06-2005, 04:33 AM

If you intend on getting your chips in the middle at some stage, id probably call here and hope for a scary card to come off on the turn.

It probably wont get him off his hand, but at least it might. If he was on a drawing hand (the hand that you represent on the turn), he would have called your all-in on the flop anyway, so you lose nothing here...

Also, if he only has something like QK.. he might read your call on the flop as weak, and fire at you on the turn..

So, by just calling the flop..you MIGHT get them to lay down AK if a 3rd diamond comes.. which they wouldn't do on the flop...and you might have sold weakness to get QK to fire another (final) bullet at you.

You might even hit a 10 (which may or may not be good)

I prefer this delayed attack rather then the simple flop jam.

Alternatively you could fold... but I dont like folding a pair of aces when your image is (likely) weak... heck, you might even be ahead!

I vote delay your final move into the pot until the turn.

West · #6 08-06-2005, 07:42 AM

If calling on the flop, I think a diamond on the turn is what you don't want to see (since he may be semi bluffing with flush draw, or a pair and a flush draw, and if not, should have you outkicked), and rather than making a move at the pot, this would be the time to get out unless opponent gives you a free card/checks it down. A non diamond would be your cue to go with it on the turn if you are calling on the flop.

Stipe_fan · #7 08-06-2005, 09:59 AM

No read makes this a very difficult hand. I would have to fold to a check-raise. I know he could be on a draw but do you risk it? Yes, you lost t4200 plus an ante but you are still alive. I absolutely hate making moves at a new table. I swear, I get busted out of more tournaments when moved to a new table. I also need to learn use extra caution for at least an orbit, probably two orbits is better. I assume the re-buy period is over. If the re-buy was still going on I think this would be an easier decision.

If you fold you will definitely know if you made the right move within two orbits. I can not tell you how many times I can say that I made the right move after watching his action.

Also, here is a move I use to a recently moved player. I will usually not raise with AK pf if a new player opens the action. If an Ace flops, he can not put you on AK and his AJ will go down in flames. This move is nearly 100% versus a new player to table. I remember losing once to the blind when they hit their two pair but it is the old risk/reward thing.

Stipe

tiger7210 · #8 08-06-2005, 10:17 AM

i lay it down here and move on as I can't see AT being the best hand here and expect the SB to have either top 2 or a set of 77's. You have plenty of chips to fight a better battle for all your chips. His check-raise commits you to the pot and your bet on the flop after your PF OR has stated I have the Ace and obviously he feels he can beat your Ace.

Che · #9 08-06-2005, 11:14 AM

So far, everyone has focused on whether or not to call/raise the check-raise.

MLG said I never should have bet the flop in the first place.

Agree/disagree? Why?

Stipe_fan · #10 08-06-2005, 11:58 AM

Again, we are not sure how the SB plays. Does he call any raise when getting good odds? Is he tight and only plays decent hands from the blinds? Will he cold call a monster in the blinds?

Since we are not sure what he is doing I think you need to make a bet. A bet here *might* win you the pot. Is the player good enough to know that you will bet any flop and then will check-raise with any hand?

I think you need to bet this flop assuming he is weak enough to lay it down. The only reason I would check here is if you intend to rep the flush. A half pot sized bet would be a good amount. I don't remember if your flop bet was 1/2. I still think you need to make an attempt to win the pot.

Stipe