playing a set when it's obvious you have a set

[elnino12]

Definitely need more info on UTG's betting style/table image/ability to laydown quality hands...but with no reads and no background information, I certainly agree with a larger than min-raise bet in order to represent an Ace. If he's got one...he'll probabaly check/call or bet/call raises until showdown and you'll get paid off. If not, he'll fold before he can hit his overset, and you'll probably get all the money possible on this hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] On a side note...If he does call your flop raise and then bets out on the turn, I suggest flat calling here, and then betting the river pretty hard since he's already shown that he'll put a good amount of money into this hand.

[DrSavage]

[ QUOTE ]
in a lot of situations you just aren't destined to make a ton of money with whatever you have, because your opponent doesn't have much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we would want to make at least $210 on average here to make the preflop call profitable.

[TheGrifter]

This is easy.

You have bottom set on a fairly uncoordinated Ace high flop. Raise baby, raise. Make it look like you have an ace that doesn't want much action, if he's got a big ace you stand a good chance at winning a big pot.

[sdplayerb]

First, I would never say "i disagree" then say nothing else. That is moronic. Not even sure why you would preface with that.

He is a midlevel player? He said he is an okay player, at 5/10 NL. That really is not a midlevel player. He is going to smell a rat on the minraise.
So if you don't want to run him off, wouldn't a flat call be better? I'm not saying that is what I would do, since I would raise. But based on your not wanting to run him off, a minraise gives away more.

Next, I am not trying to wean a little money out of the guy..I want to double through him. That is the entire reason to play 44. Otherwise calling $30 hoping to just make $130 on something that flops 1 in 7 times is just not a good play.
You play it for one reason..to win a monster pot!

Next he raised UTG..I don't see him having A9 here. I'm really hoping he has AK or AQ and will pay me off.
A minraise gets me an extra $50 and starts to give away my hand.
A flatcall also looks a little suspicious, he likely bets one more time then is done with it.

But since so many people slowplay trips, making a raise with it looks more like an A. So if he has AK, he will think he is ahead since you don't have AK, or he'd expect a reraise, nor a set since you'd probably trap.
So I am trying to break him..so I make it $150 and now AK is in a quandry as if he calls the pot is now $400 and anymore betting, which he'll do with AK unless I am the biggest rock ever, which Bruiser is not, he is going to lose a monster. He ain't ditching AK.

Ok, what if he doesn't have AK or AQ. Well, he is done with the hand no matter what anyway. KK or QQ was taking a stab at it, no reason to flat call and let him hit his set and break you for free. AJ knows his hand is no good, of course you would like to give him a free card, but AK is the most likely hand here, maybe AQ.
I'm playing to win $500-1000 here, which can happen often against AK.
You are playing to win $130 here.

Again, you play small pp to try to break a guy/win a huge pot. That is like most of the reason to play with deep stacks in NL.

[Louie Landale]

In late position you need to be calling these small raises with quite a few hands. Maybe not AT but AQ and 76s and A5s and 44.

You also need to generally raise when you flop something, unless its a cynch he's got you beat and will call the raise. So if you call the raise with 76s and the flop is A64 and he bets, you should raise; generally a little more than a pot-sized bet; which is what you'd do with AQ. Ditto for the set. Use the set to help steal these pots on the flop.

Playing the way you do (appearantly calling with AK on that flop), sure its tough to make any money with a set. Newsflash: if you only raise with sets they aren't going to call.

- Louie

[theBruiser500]

I raise in many situations, just not on this board. On this board I call a lot, in fact I would call with AQ and 76. What is the value in raising with those hands?

[FoxwoodsFiend]

So it seems as though your mission has to be to make 210 bucks or so to justify your preflop call. He's already given you 125 of that (preflop and postflop betting plus the blinds plus the other caller). You need to make another hundred. There's a good way to do that and leave the possibility open of a pretty decent pot-smooth call the flop. That way he'll probably put you on an ace and bet out the turn to see how good it is. Call the turn if he bets it, if not bet a medium-sized amount (around 120). In either case you're representing an ace well enough that if he checks the river you can value bet him for a couple hundred and he'll be stuck because of the size of the pot. There's a chance he's betting out with KK or QQ getting ready to give up the flop. The risk of that being the case and him sucking out are small enough that you can lay the trap. I say slowplay until the river and then figure out how much you can get him to call.

[ML4L]

[ QUOTE ]
So it seems as though your mission has to be to make 210 bucks or so to justify your preflop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, Foxwoods, because you aren't the only one in the thread to say this, but this is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've EVER seen propagated on this forum...

I cringed when I read it the first time and should have said something then. But now that I've seen it again, I felt obligated to say something.

Briefly, here's the problem. This ain't limit poker. The whole 7-1 or whatever rule doesn't apply. There are several reasons for this; I'll let people figure them out for themselves. But, here's the thing. Even if it did apply (which again, it CERTAINLY does not), you wouldn't have to win seven times your preflop investment EVERY time. It would be an average. Your goal when flopping a set should not be to win $210. It should be to double-up.

Sorry to make an example out of you, but it needed to be said... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

ML4L

[Wayfare]

Is it not the same in limit? That your average expectation for hitting a set needs to be 7.xx times the money it costs to call?

Obviously in NL it's easier to get the money all in with a set vs. overpair, but I dont know if he was implying that you needed to make 7x the investment *every* time...

[scrub]

For what it's worth, in limit the preflop situations where a call with a PP will be profitable are much more clear cut. There are just a lot more situations where it's almost impossible to show a profit with a call because it's too hard to get enough money in later in the hand.

I think that's what ML meant, not that it's not also an average in limit.

scrub