KK all heart flop

[Derek123]

EP is 75/25 but only 20 hands
CO is 56/10 but only 56 hands

Party Poker 10-20 (10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
EP raises, Hero 3bets, CO calls, BB calls, EP calls

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, EP bets, Hero calls, CO raises, BB folds, EP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
EP bets, Hero raises.

[ QUOTE ]
EP is 75/25 but only 20 hands
CO is 56/10 but only 56 hands

Party Poker 10-20 (10 handed)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
EP raises, Hero 3bets, CO calls, BB calls, EP calls

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, EP bets, Hero calls, CO raises, BB folds, EP calls, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
EP bets, Hero raises.

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I like the raise here, even though you may be behind in the hand and don't have the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Preflop, the CO was willing to call your 3-bet cold, indicating a strong hand. However, when the board came down all-hearts, the CO raised, indicating to me that he's got a drawing hand. Would someone with a made flush raise on the flop? Highly unlikely unless it's a small one, but it's unlikely that CO would call a 3-bet with even suited connectors. I would probably put CO on A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] with a Picasso kicker.

Now for EP. He raised preflop, indicating a fairly strong hand given his position. He led out on the flop, got raised, but didn't do the standard "check to the raiser" on the turn, probably suspecting that CO was trying to buy a free card with this raise on the flop. Therefore, I would view this as a way to protect a made hand against CO getting the free card he's looking for. I would put him on a set (9s or Js) or perhaps an overpair. I would rule out a flush because he bet out on the flop when most players would simply check hoping to slow-play and trap their opponents.

If either CO or EP raises, you can pretty much assume that you are beat and drawing very thin (perhaps dead) and should fold your Pocket Kings.

I don't like the idea of folding Kings here to a re-raise on the turn. EP could have QQ or either opponent could have A or K hearts and playing their draw aggressively.

For that reason I don't like the turn raise here because I don't see a reraise as a sure indication that your kings are beat. I call, hoping the guy behind me calls, no heart comes on the river and I don't get caught in the middle of a raising war.

This is one of those situations where you are probably well under 30% chance of having the best hand, but the pot is too big to fold unless there is a raising war and it gets too expensive to stay in.

PF - Fine

Flop, Raise the EP better. Give the draws bad odds to do so. Don't assume you are beat yet. You are lucky that the guy to your left bet to give you this opportunity. If CO raises, and it isn't capped, call.

Turn. OUCH. EP donked you. Pot is big enough that I'd rather not fold (but it is close and a read would help). If I call It can be raised and have it 3 bet by the time it is back to me (and i would have to fold). If I raise it is probably the same thing. HMMMM. I guess I call and hope the CO has the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] only and isn't looking to raise here. I then call any non [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] river.

LLL

[callmedonnie]

I use a similar line quite often in these spots where I wait for the turn to raise too. The only difference is I can't remember it coming up when a flop raiser was behind me and that makes this much more perplexing. What was CO's aggression? I think the validity of the move is dependent upon that. I know he is loose, but is he also passive? That would change things. I really like this move though, I just hope its the right spot.

[callmedonnie]

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Flop, Raise the EP better. Give the draws bad odds to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 13 small bets in the pot on the flop. If you raise, you make is 16, offering any who wants to call 8 to 1 on their flush draws. On the turn there are I think 9.5 big bets in. If you raise there you can face CO 6 to 1, which is still plenty but if you want to face them with worse odds you must wait for the turn.

I am starting to think this terrible being sandwiched in the middle of this on this board. But hero may have the best hand. While I don't know if a turn raise is the proper play, IMO it is much better than a flop raise.

CallMeDonnie wrote
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Flop, Raise the EP better. Give the draws bad odds to do so.

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There are 13 small bets in the pot on the flop. If you raise, you make is 16, offering any who wants to call 8 to 1 on their flush draws. On the turn there are I think 9.5 big bets in. If you raise there you can face CO 6 to 1, which is still plenty but if you want to face them with worse odds you must wait for the turn.

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The flush is not the only draw here. I doubt we will fold an A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], a K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], or even Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , But it might fold people playing for the gutshot straight, Holding an AK, or AQ from spiking the Ace. It could fold TT, JJ who could spike a set. Someoneone with T9 who could hit a set, etc... In addition you may get a re-raise after you that makes this more effective. You also may take control of the hand.

In all honesty, the thought of waiting for the turn to pop the pot is something I go back and forth on. I understand manipulating the pot size so that when I do pop the turn it gives them "worse" odds to call. The price I pay for this however is by giving them "better" odds on the flop. Is giving them 13:1 on the flop instead of 16:2 in order to get 6:1 on the Turn a good tradeoff.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
CallMeDonnie wrote
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[ QUOTE ]
Flop, Raise the EP better. Give the draws bad odds to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 13 small bets in the pot on the flop. If you raise, you make is 16, offering any who wants to call 8 to 1 on their flush draws. On the turn there are I think 9.5 big bets in. If you raise there you can face CO 6 to 1, which is still plenty but if you want to face them with worse odds you must wait for the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flush is not the only draw here. I doubt we will fold an A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], a K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], or even Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , But it might fold people playing for the gutshot straight, Holding an AK, or AQ from spiking the Ace. It could fold TT, JJ who could spike a set. Someoneone with T9 who could hit a set, etc... In addition you may get a re-raise after you that makes this more effective. You also may take control of the hand.

In all honesty, the thought of waiting for the turn to pop the pot is something I go back and forth on. I understand manipulating the pot size so that when I do pop the turn it gives them "worse" odds to call. The price I pay for this however is by giving them "better" odds on the flop. Is giving them 13:1 on the flop instead of 16:2 in order to get 6:1 on the Turn a good tradeoff.

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You really worry about someone drawing to a gutshot straight on a 3 flush board? AK is drawing to two outs assuming they don't have the Ace of hearts and will lose to a flush. Same for AQ, barring running queens excluding queen of hearts. TT and JJ are drawing to two outs, one if the heart beats them assuming that other player has a heart. If they have the ten or jack of hearts, they have 11 outs. Basically, all of the possible holdings you list are very thin.

Regarding your question on the tradeoff, SSHE elaborates on sacrificing a small edge to exploit a bigger one on the turn. I understand this may not be one of these times necessarily. HU I would say it certainly is often enough. but versus two players it is likely that one of them is holding a heart.