Contious Blackjack shuffler beatable?

[arod15]

At the Wynn in NV i came accorss a black shuffler. Its the first time ive seen anything like this. Apparently after dealing the cards the dealer just puits the cards back into the maching which shuffles it. So the game never stops which is good. But does this kill cardcounting? Can this be beat?

[tubalkain]

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At the Wynn in NV i came accorss a black shuffler. Its the first time ive seen anything like this. Apparently after dealing the cards the dealer just puits the cards back into the maching which shuffles it. So the game never stops which is good. But does this kill cardcounting? Can this be beat?

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Nope. Shufflemaster put up a 100k reward for anyone who could predict, count, or otherwise beat the thing consistently. It's unbeatable because it's essentially a 4 deck shoe reshuffled every two or three hands. You're not going to get the -EV anywhere close to zero, let alone positive.

[arod15]

I figured as much. I hope some math genoius figures a way to beat it. Or else it will be a matter of time before all casinoes use it.

[arod15]

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At the Wynn in NV i came accorss a black shuffler. Its the first time ive seen anything like this. Apparently after dealing the cards the dealer just puits the cards back into the maching which shuffles it. So the game never stops which is good. But does this kill cardcounting? Can this be beat?

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Nope. Shufflemaster put up a 100k reward for anyone who could predict, count, or otherwise beat the thing consistently. It's unbeatable because it's essentially a 4 deck shoe reshuffled every two or three hands. You're not going to get the -EV anywhere close to zero, let alone positive.

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One more note. If someone had figured a way to beat these machines im sure they wouldnt take 100K to tell them. Think about how myuch they could get from professional counters let alone how mych they could earn. Just the 100K doesnt completly convince me although i will say this i wont play it as i wasnt much of a counter to begin with.

[sekrah]

How could a math genius beat something that's completely random?

Wynn could put up $100 billion dollars, nobody could get it to +EV.

[joshman1204]

you are assuming it is completly random but as far as I know there is no information to support the "completly random" statement. These shufflers are machines and it is nearly impossible for a mechanical device to achieve truely random outcomes. With that said I dont think these machines will be beat by a mathematical formula alone (i.e. a count system) but I do think someone will figure out a way to beat these systems but the legality of these methods will surely be questionable at best.

[arod15]

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you are assuming it is completly random but as far as I know there is no information to support the "completly random" statement. These shufflers are machines and it is nearly impossible for a mechanical device to achieve truely random outcomes. With that said I dont think these machines will be beat by a mathematical formula alone (i.e. a count system) but I do think someone will figure out a way to beat these systems but the legality of these methods will surely be questionable at best.

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I agree esp with the black box tech out there. Apparntly there is a machine that through super math can tell you with 70% accuracy what the dealer cards is. 2 downsides are one it cost 10K but two if caught with it you go to jail as it is a machine and that is stealing. SO if somoene can figure a logirtihim to do that im sure the machine can me broken by some super geek. This is like a neverending game of chess

[joshman1204]

I think this machine will be broken by someone with a mechanical engineer background or something along those lines before it is broken by a math geek. I firmly believe mechanical devices such as these cannot achieve randomness due to the fact that they were designed and programed by humans.

The even scarier side of this is the thought of the casino being able to rig the deck with these machines. Just imagine a casino that has aces and tens marked for the BJ checker thing on the table decides they want to build a shuffle machine that can also track this coding on the cards. Now the casino would theoretically be able to place those cards in a position so that they greatly decrease the BJ rate for the players. This dosently really seem like it would be too hard to do but hopefully the gaming board is regulating these machines well enough so that this cant happen.

[sekrah]

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I think this machine will be broken by someone with a mechanical engineer background or something along those lines before it is broken by a math geek. I firmly believe mechanical devices such as these cannot achieve randomness due to the fact that they were designed and programed by humans.

The even scarier side of this is the thought of the casino being able to rig the deck with these machines. Just imagine a casino that has aces and tens marked for the BJ checker thing on the table decides they want to build a shuffle machine that can also track this coding on the cards. Now the casino would theoretically be able to place those cards in a position so that they greatly decrease the BJ rate for the players. This dosently really seem like it would be too hard to do but hopefully the gaming board is regulating these machines well enough so that this cant happen.

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I don't think the casino's would risk trying something like that when they already have the edge. I don't think they would risk there reputation on buring aces.

Somebody could conduct long trials on the expected number of blackjacks and nail them bigtime.

[mattw]

there is a casino in mt pleasant, mi, that is owned and operated by an indian nation. they got caught taking aces out of the decks, not once but twice, by the gaming board. apparently the fine is/was not large enough to stop them from cheating. needles to say, i never went back there. their poker room also closed.