easy decision?

brick · #1 09-08-2005, 02:37 PM

No read on this opponent.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (8 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero ...

Ben5505 · #2 09-08-2005, 02:40 PM

I thought would be to fold.

brick · #3 09-08-2005, 03:01 PM

automatic or did you have to think about it?

TomBrooks · #4 09-10-2005, 11:22 AM

PF: Is this an easy three bet?

FLOP: I think I like Check/call better here. The pot is big and the PF raiser is unlikely to fold anyway. With the right card, you might want to bet out on the turn and sometimes that has more impact, even whent it's only a semi-bluff or bluff.

brick · #5 09-12-2005, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PF: Is this an easy three bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think so. I like to get them money in when I'm confident about my edge.

[ QUOTE ]

FLOP: I think I like Check/call better here. The pot is big and the PF raiser is unlikely to fold anyway. With the right card, you might want to bet out on the turn and sometimes that has more impact, even whent it's only a semi-bluff or bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost never raise PF and check. It's something I should do more of, both check-raise my good hands, and check call my average hands, and check-fold the crappy ones.

But here, with King on the flop, how can I not bet?
Betting seems so critial here.

TTChamp · #6 09-12-2005, 05:03 PM

No, I don't think this is an easy decision without a read.

With any read that this guy has a clue and wouldn't cold call with crap, I think it is an easy fold.

I hate these types of hands, but without a read I think I you should call the river. You are getting 9:1 on the river so your ace only needs to be good 10% of the time. Against an opponent that has a clue, I would fold everytime. This guy could be a total moron for all you know (Party 3/6). I think the moron factor gives you just enough to call. The way he played it could very well be two clubs with a desparation river bluff. Besides holding an 8, what hand is he just calling with on the flop and turn, but betting on the river (assuming he is not a shrewed river value bettor).

One question for you, what would you have done if he had raised the turn? I think you would have to call. The reason I ask is that I think there are certain times where checking this turn is a good idea. For example, against a bad loose player, I would check/call this turn and then check the river UI. Against a TAG, I think you should bet the turn, then check/fold the river UI.

Bottom line is that without a read I would call here, but with even a low confidence read that this guy is not a Party 3/6 moron I would fold.

P.S. I agree that the flop bet is mandatory.

jt1 · #7 09-12-2005, 05:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like Check/call better here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can only see checking the flop if you intend to fold if button calls a PFR's bet. Otherwise, what's the point? You can safely?? fold to a raise and force weaker or vulnerable hands like 77 out.

#8 09-12-2005, 05:19 PM

Bleah, I hate these hands.

I think this is a river check/call. You'll lose most of the time, but you'll also pick off bluffs from draws that missed. If it wasn't HU, it's an easy fold, but HU and draws on the board, this is a call.

jt1 · #9 09-12-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a river check/call

[/ QUOTE ]

True, you only have to be right 11% of the time, but button did cold call PF. The only thing unknown button could have that you beat is 2 clubs and unknow button will have that only a fraction of the time and he'll be betting it just a fraction of the times he does have it. I vote fold.

#10 09-12-2005, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a river check/call

[/ QUOTE ]

True, you only have to be right 11% of the time, but button did cold call PF. The only thing unknown button could have that you beat is 2 clubs and unknow button will have that only a fraction of the time and he'll be betting it just a fraction of the times he does have it. I vote fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree except the button hasn't shown any aggression. Even preflop, he cold called. It smells like a PP or a drawing hand, or maybe Ax that missed.

Is the OP good 11%? Tough to say. Hard to say fold or call is a bad choice here, both seem close in EV. I'd guess the villian is a calling station with a decent pocket pair, but is he bluffing at the pot 11%? Quite possibly.