Deep thinking hand

Ribbo · #1 08-18-2005, 06:12 PM

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ribmeister/26323.html

Read and offer opinions.

gergery · #2 08-18-2005, 07:39 PM

Unorthodox hand played in an unusual manner because of your history with this opponent, to be done only when the opponent is good and knows your play, and even then only occasionally.

But if he was a good player, then you certainly could not expect him to have AA there – he should be raising in late position with unopened pots with AA, A2, A3 and some other hands, so your read seems a bit of hindsight.

Ribbo · #3 08-18-2005, 08:13 PM

Not at all, he wont make a bet on the flop without a legitimate reason. A nut flush draw is certainly good reason to. Likewise I wont call without a strong hand, so when I do he knows I have a legitimate reason to call. The range of hands is pretty slim for me to hold. It's not a flush draw so I must have 2 pair, set or the straight. He is well aware of how often I check raise him which is shown by his check on the turn. This also tells me that he doesn't have QJ obviously, he may still have a set but with him definately having an ace it lessens that. I do not know at this point he has AA, but if I check to him again I believe this is the only way of getting money out of him. He doesn't have the nuts and any bet from me on the river will tell him I do, so if he believes I don't have the nuts, then there is a chance he will bet.

#4 08-18-2005, 08:30 PM

Good poker.

gergery · #5 08-18-2005, 09:09 PM

Ok, he open-raises CO+2 in an un-opened pot. If he is good, he can have AA, A2, A3, A45x, and perhaps other stuff occasionally to mix things up AKJ9, KK24, 2345, JJT9, JJQQ etc. You call, so he can put you on roughly the same range minus the crappier holdings.

It’s heads up and you check. He should be betting with a fair number of hands here. QJ, Ax clubs, Kx clubs, a set, two pair. Also semi-bluff hands like AQcT8c, AQQT, and occasionally even with pure bluff hands like A288ds, since your preflop call could easily have been something like A234 that has to go away now.

When you call the flop, yes he can now narrow you to two pair or set, but wouldn’t you also call here with AKQ9ds to the K in clubs? What about QQT8ds? What about A27c8c? Why are you so sure that HE can’t be continuation betting with A27c8c ?

What happens if he has a set with the naked Ac and a club hits – then he bets and bluff you out? Or the board pairs and he holds Ax clubs and bluffs you out?

Look, the hand was played fine, and your turn read set up a nice river play. But it easily could have gone differently if his cards were different, or you got different turn/river cards.

Ribbo · #6 08-18-2005, 10:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, he open-raises CO+2 in an un-opened pot. If he is good, he can have AA, A2, A3, A45x, and perhaps other stuff occasionally to mix things up AKJ9, KK24, 2345, JJT9, JJQQ etc. You call, so he can put you on roughly the same range minus the crappier holdings.

It’s heads up and you check. He should be betting with a fair number of hands here. QJ, Ax clubs, Kx clubs, a set, two pair. Also semi-bluff hands like AQcT8c, AQQT, and occasionally even with pure bluff hands like A288ds, since your preflop call could easily have been something like A234 that has to go away now.

When you call the flop, yes he can now narrow you to two pair or set, but wouldn’t you also call here with AKQ9ds to the K in clubs? What about QQT8ds? What about A27c8c? Why are you so sure that HE can’t be continuation betting with A27c8c ?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am well aware there are a lot of bets he will follow through on, but A278 is most certainly not one of them [ QUOTE ]

What happens if he has a set with the naked Ac and a club hits – then he bets and bluff you out? Or the board pairs and he holds Ax clubs and bluffs you out?

[/ QUOTE ] I would check raise QQxx for one, as it's very unlikely he has the nuts. I would throw A278 without a moments hesistation to any bet on his part. If he has a set and a naked ace and a club hits, then yes he does bluff me out because I can't call a pot bet, that's pretty standard play. He will not bluff me out should the board pair, as the range of hands I am holding when I call him on the flop are either 2 pair, a set or QJ, none of which do him any favours bluffing against. He cannot afford to be bluffing if he does not know I do not hold the nuts, this is very important to remember. Almost all bluffs, solid player against solid player are done in full knowledge that the opponent cannot call, because the tricky play both are capable means neither know the others holding for sure. [ QUOTE ]

Look, the hand was played fine, and your turn read set up a nice river play. But it easily could have gone differently if his cards were different, or you got different turn/river cards.

[/ QUOTE ] In each of his holdings, I gain nothing by betting the river, if he had different cards then I still want him to bluff, it's the only way I will win money on the river. There is no value bet. Because of all the scare cards that could hit, I want to keep the pot small out of position. I will work out the equity of me betting the turn against checking it twice and winning via a bluff and check raise.

Jim Morgan · #7 08-19-2005, 04:44 AM

Assuming that your read is correct... He has a good hand, but a QJ is unlikely since you believe he has Aces, why would you check the turn, if you know he fears a check-raise. You give him infinite odds to catch up. All you get in return is a chance to catch a bluff. If he has AAxx with clubs, he is probably not betting unless he makes his flush or catches an Ace. Why not pot bet the turn and take it down now. If he has the straight and a redraw, can you honestly say you could fold the turn pot bet that is quite likely to come? You seem to be risking an 80-90 dollar pot to win 125 or so and I jsut dont see that you can count on him betting a weaker hand AND paying you off all that often

I am even confused by the narrow ranges of hands you describe. And to be quite honest, it is this sort of situation that I have the most difficulty understanding in pot limit O8 Won't the pre-flop raiser bet at MANY pots in this spot. If he is only going to be called with 2 pair or better, it seems he should bet the pot, or perhaps less, with EVERY hand. Won't the caller have a fairly wide range of hands, most of which either beat AA or have a good draw to do so. It really seems like this kind of situation, a high flop in a high low game, has to become a contest of wills as much or more so than a contest of cards. Is the callers positional disadvantage so great the he simply cannot win a "pissing contest" and that he must therefore only contest the pot when he hits it fairly solidly?

Jim M

Ribbo · #8 08-19-2005, 11:26 AM

Because I know the player very well, the range of hands he would follow through with on the flop is not that great given that I would never bet out on the flop, only ever check raise. This is not a situation that comes up too often, but against players you have played for over 2 years on a regular, often daily basis, you have to occasionally throw them a curveball. Let's say he is now aware that I am capable of checking the nuts to him 3 times. If at some point in the future I establish that by the river, having checked 3 times to him, that he does not have the nuts, I may again check raise any bet and he might have a flashback to the day i stung him for $125 on the river and fold. Also by checking this way, it can very well pay itself back in free cards when out of position in future.
On the turn I gave him a free 20% chance of hitting the river. This was worth $17 to him. I would wager that should the river come a blank, it is worth more than $17 to check to him again and call a bet. If I pot the turn, he will not call, although most players will. As I have pointed out on previous occasions though, sometimes your opponents have no chance whatsoever of winning, and any aggression from you causes them to fold. If you allow them to keep betting , sometimes it's the only way of winning money, plus it makes you look clever when it pays off......

got0uts · #9 08-19-2005, 01:54 PM

You think too much, it blows your brain out.

Seriously, since you've known this player so well, didn't his preflop pot-bet scream out of AA there? What were you calling for? You were the only caller, you know better than me that you were a huge underdog preflop against him. Calling his pot-raise preflop without enough players with your high only cards is a -EV play in long term.

Edited, postflop play was awesome.

Mendacious · #10 08-19-2005, 04:07 PM

So you slow played a freakin flopped straight, against a good opponent, with a scary board, who happened to hit the perfectly wrong card on the end, BFD.

You played the hand cautiously, and for value, and he is victimized by having a really seductive nut flush draw materialize into top trips against a made straight. Bad luck for him, good solid play by you-- that could have cost you a pot if the river comes club.

You make this hand out to be the Negreanu vs Deeb finesse steal that Harrington lauds in HOH2, when in my view the hand was played the way a large number of solid players would play it, albeit differently than you would play it against most opponents. The cards fell perfectly into place giving you the nuts and him a hand that most people can't get away from.

I'm not knocking you, I've got a couple hundred hands with you and I respect your play, but posting this on two sites is a bit of a brag job under the guise of an O8 primer. It is especially hard to appreciate from an online player perspective.

Your self-gloss is tame in comparison to ATE though.

PS Scoreboard!

You've been punked.