calling with overs, hit BDRFD

Deamon2 · #1 06-06-2005, 12:44 AM

no specific reads, it was a generally loose table. Maybe a little tighter than I'd like, but this hand was a nice exception.

Feel free to evaluate all streets. I figure the pot is far too large to fold this on the flop, where I might have the best hand and can definitely draw to the best hand. I have 6 overs outs, 1.5 outs for the backdoor flush draw, and I gave myself 1 out for the backdoor straight draw. I considered raising the flop, but I figured that if he was bluffing, he may continue it onto the turn if I come up with a pair or a draw.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Weatherhead03 · #2 06-06-2005, 12:45 AM

congrats..nice hand.

istewart · #3 06-06-2005, 12:59 AM

Nice.

KCheng · #4 06-06-2005, 01:22 AM

Would have played it the same way. Like you said, overcard outs, backdoor flush...Stick around to see if you improve on turn...and you sure improved [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Nice hand.

aK13 · #5 06-06-2005, 02:36 AM

I'd raise the flop, to knock BB out and also to possibly get a free card if I so choose.

billy51 · #6 06-06-2005, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have 6 overs outs, 1.5 outs for the backdoor flush draw, and I gave myself 1 out for the backdoor straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be less inclined to raise the flop. This statement overvalues you hand...you have to discount your overcard outs to 3 or 4 outs to account for the times you spike your pair and don't win and your backdoor straight draw is a runner runner gutshot and is probably worth, at most, 0.5 outs.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop, to knock BB out and also to possibly get a free card if I so choose.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think getting a free card is the only real reason to raise this flop, but you have to remember that the free card play doesn't always work. If villian is passive enough that a free card play will work the vast majority of the time then I say go for it. Otherwise, I would just call and see the turn cheaply.

Also, I don't think raising to fold the BB increases your equity enough to compensate for the additional bet.

aK13 · #7 06-06-2005, 02:59 AM

If he has something like K5 or A8, he might fold to our bet, buying us some outs on our overs. The free card is just a bonus, IMO.

billy51 · #8 06-06-2005, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If he has something like K5 or A8, he might fold to our bet, buying us some outs on our overs. The free card is just a bonus, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
True. If he has K5 or A8, he might call for one bet but fold for two, buying us some outs by raising the flop. But the thing is, I'm not sure that it is worth another bet to fold the BB, at least not all by its self (maybe the free card adds enough benefit to justify the extra bet).

First of all, let me say that I don't think we are ahead here very often. After hero raises pre-flop, villian's bet almost always indicates at least a pair.

Assuming that BB with call one bet but fold for two, our raise only benefits us if BB has a hand that is better than ours or that counterfeits some of our outs AND one of our outs has to come in on the turn or river (if we make it that far). My point is that BB will often have a weak hand and will fold even for just one bet. Also, we are probably behind in the hand and do not have a strong draw. The pot is big, but it is not huge. I think we might be better off seeing the turn cheaply.

The possibility of earning a free card increases the value of a raise, but like I said before, the chance of earning a free card depends on our read on the bettor.

irishpint · #9 06-06-2005, 03:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If he has something like K5 or A8, he might fold to our bet, buying us some outs on our overs. The free card is just a bonus, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is correct, i believe.

Vagrant · #10 06-06-2005, 04:08 AM

I think I would have raised the flop to represent a high pair. You have two overcards and a backdoor flush draw, and Its unlikely anyone would pair a board with 3 low cards. Its a perfect situation for a semi-bluff. However you probaly won more money the way you played it because he bet into you on 4th and 5th street. But I think reraising would have increased your odds of winning as you cant always count on the back door royal =). nh