55 against 90 VP$IPers

Wired Jokers · #1 12-08-2005, 11:03 PM

I'm trying to play better poker. This hand gave me that uncomfortable feeling the whole way thorough which most of you are familiar with. Trying to push small edges isn't something I've been good at - does this qualify?

UTG+2 is 57/19/1.2
MP1 is 93/34/3 (no, I'm not kidding). His raise on the flop means nothing. He LOVES to bluff, especially if the board pairs.
SB is 87/22/1.4 or something close

It was a good game. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (11.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

#2 12-09-2005, 12:03 AM

I think betting the turn is essential here. Giving a free card here with a very vulnerable hand is detrimental, and may cost you the entire pot. While it's unlikely either of these opponents will fold for 1 BB, betting is also important from a value standpoint, as it's likely you're ahead. Betting may also buy you a free showdown, if necessary.

Charge the draws on the turn here.

#3 12-09-2005, 12:08 AM

I like it, but I also think you should follow up on the turn.

I really really like the river raise, I think that's a good play that I'm often too chicken to make. MP1 has any 2 cards and your raise might very well fold out better hands. Nice play.

silkyslim · #4 12-09-2005, 12:27 AM

i actually think your flop play kicks ass. You may have the best hand (because all these people are downies), plus you have the gutshot in a pot big enough to call, plus set outs maybe. (sort of). I think you got the turn and river mixed up. you need to be betting the turn , giving a free card was horrible and dangerous. I would check behind on the river probably unless you improve.

Wired Jokers · #5 12-09-2005, 11:15 AM

Man these threads get bumped down quick. My main thought was the turn as well. My dilemma in this situation was that the pot is now close to 12 BB, and a bet on the turn will not get SB or UTG+2 to fold. At least one of those two would also call a single bet on the river.

I neglected to say in my OP that MP1 (Maniac) will bet any street IF the previous street was checked through. I had 99% confidence that MP1 was betting the river, and my river raise could blow out SP and UTG+2.

So my probable choices were 1) to bet the turn, most likely get called by everyone, and get it checked to me at the river. I don't know if a free showdown gets me anything here, and the free card might win it for me or 2) use the line I did. (NOTE: if a 4 or 5 came, I probably would have went for overcalls.)

#6 12-09-2005, 11:44 AM

While it's unlikely anyone will fold, giving a free card remains incorrect. Offering your opponents 12-1 and the chance to incorrectly fold a live draw is far superior to giving your opponents infinite odds and a free shot at winning a big pot.

The river play is inconsistent with your turn play, and in my opinion will rarely fold out any better hands - especially with these opponents. My problem with it is you've shown weakness on the turn, and this will lead players to call down with higher pairs to your 5s in the hope of catching out a bluff. Had the river card completed some sort of draw I think the play would've been more convincing. In my opinion, the stats alone suggest these opponents are never folding any winning hands, even for 2 BBs.

Overall, I think betting the turn is of the utmost importance here.

gopnik · #7 12-09-2005, 12:14 PM

I'd fold on every street

MN_Mime · #8 12-09-2005, 12:28 PM

This is absolutely wrong. I hope it was intended as sarcasm?