2/5 NL Easy Lay Down?

[halis123456789]

Hero ($700) Button
UTG ($800)
UTG+1 ($2300)

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps.
Hero limps on Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB Folds, BB checks

Flp: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (Pot: $20)

SB check, BB check

UTG Bets $20, he's kind of a weak tight, likes to bet top pair a lot, baby raises, small bets on flop. Generally straightforward.

UTG+1 Calls $20, he's more tricky, not only does he have a ton of chips, but he's confusing. He came in really aggressively showing down some really crappy hands, but it seemed like every time he took down a big pot he had good cards and he slowplayed it when he had a hand.

Pot ($60)

Hero Raises to $50
SB Folds, BB Folds
UTG Calls, UTG+1 Calls

Trn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Pot ($170)

They both check to me and I bet $100

Both Call.

Rvr: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
(Pot $470)
UTG checks
UTG+1 bets into me $300

Two Questions:
1) What should I do?
2) How should I have played the hand differently?

[halis123456789]

On the flop I put one of them on a flush draw and one of them on two pair (MAYBE a set but I think that would've been reraised). Obviously on the turn this is a dream situation for me, I don't think I bet enough though.

On the river, I put UTG on a spade draw.
The river card is a really ugly card for me. With the Queen pairing the board, and UTG+1 betting out $300, I can't think of anything I beat (besides AK).

I folded and UTG folded. UTG+1 mucked it.
Did I play it wrong?

[cpitt398]

I like your betting here. I am one for not overbetting pots in Nl ring games. I cannot count how many times Ive seen someone overbet preflop , get called by one person (not a blind) and then move in on a low rainbow board only to show aces after the other person folded. They get so scared of losing they dont make any money with their good hands.

With that said you bet 100 into a 170 dollar pot and got called in two spots with the best hand. You didnt give them the right price to call and they called anyways (the last to act might have been close given he other player called). Then you didnt pay off when beat. If you had bet more and got called it would have been harder to let go of given that the river bet was a similar size. I think a low spade would have been harder to fold. This one seems more likely it made a hand.
If the river was a blank, two pair would have been forced to pay off another bet on the end assuming you made a value bet, nothing crazy.
I don't claim to be good at no limit though so someone correct me if im wrong. My problem is i pay off too much when the scare card does come. But when it doesnt i think i make the most of it.

To contridict myself, ive seen some people call way more than I would even think about calling on draws. This also tends to confuse me as i put them on an entirley different hand, lol. But i like not forcing the fold here.

[mr. shred]

When he doesn't raise your turn bet the best I could put him on would be two pair or a set after the river. I would have pushed. Seems to me he probably had a weak ace. If you layed this hand down I would suggest you play at a lower limit and gain some more experience.

[ethan]

Your flop raise should be bigger. Far too many turn cards kill your action. Raising the pot would be making it $100 - I'd at least make it $80.. If you've done that (and they both call you) the pot's more like 250-300 on the turn and you'll have 600 behind. This'll make the turn/river play much more straightforward. (You'd bet bigger on the turn as well.)

You're giving UTG+1 credit for AA/KK/QQ/AQ/KQ on the river when you fold. (I presume you're not worried about UTG here.) Now, which of those hands make sense? UTG+1 may like slowplaying, but would he do so on a board with so many draws? I count at least 16 scare cards that can come on the turn (the non-K spades, the Js and the Ts). AA-QQ likely find a raise preflop, and if not then they do somewhere before the river. AQ/KQ could plausibly be played this way.

You say you put one on a flush draw and one on two pair on the flop. Why? Also, given that you have different reads on these two, it's important which one has which. Does their turn play change things in your mind?

You say you can only beat AK. This isn't true. You beat AK, KJ/KT [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], AT/AJ, QJ/QT - "in-between-hands" that may bluff out a better hand but also beat a caller who's trying to snap off a bluff. He may also have 89 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Most of these hands will call your last $250, too.

This is far from an easy lay down. I'm not folding when all the draws miss, a scare card hits, and a "tricky" player who's done nothing but call the whole hand bets out.

edit - added some italics

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

I don't think its an easy laydown and I would not be surprised if your hand was good. I think that UTG+1 could have been playing a hand like QJ or QT here that you could beat. He could have also detected the fact that neither of you were comfortable with the board pairing.

A $30 raise into a $60 pot (on the flop) is too small. A pot size bet (raise to $100; $80 on top) would have been more appropriate. I don't know how to react to any aggression if an A, K, Q or spade hits and I would suspect that a J or T could easily mean a chop.

[Tony.T]

I really like Ethans post. And I want to point out to things. First I think you played it to weakly, you got the nuts on a heavy action board based on the range of hands you put them on. Second, two very likely hands IMO is the
Q for a three of kind in combination with J or T for the straight draw. Must go, just had 15 min break. See you around!

[topout]

If UTG + 1 flopped 2 pair or a set with that board he has to re-raise UTG's $20 bet.
If he's a good player, his play is a fair indicator of a straight, flush or combination drawing hand that is not 2 pair or a set.

As a general rule when you flop the nutz but the board is draw heavy, bet between 3/4 of the pot and the pot on every street.

topout

[MarkL444]

i think your flop raise is terrible. there are way too many scare cards that can come. get some money in now.

[cwl]

- raise more on the flop
- bet more on the turn
- call the river

on the flop/turn you have a great hand with a board that allows for a ton of worse hands that will call you. give yourself a chance to win a lot of money.

on the river i think your easily winning this often enough to call. the only somewhat realistic hands you are losing to that i can think of are AQ/KQ which your opponent needed to not raise pre-flop and not raise either the flop/turn after hitting 2 pair. sometimes he will have this and you will lose but i dont think he is winning anywhere near often enough for you to fold here. i think its much more likely that he has a busted draw, QJ/QT, or Ax than that he has a boat.