Is this why I'm not doing as good?

Cardzy · #1 12-19-2004, 03:10 AM

This is a strategy question, more specifically for $1/$2 but overall for any limit. What do you think of changing my strategy against passive players?

Ok, I moved up to $1/$2 about 5 days ago I guess and I am not doing nearly as well as I did at .50/$1. At first I thought it was just an adjustment period and it still may be and it may be that I'm not adjusting.

I am winning, currently with only 4,117 hands played so far I am winning 2.11 bb/100. Yes I know that is a good rate per say, but I know I am making mistakes somewhere and it is costing me more money than it should be. I find myself losing a lot more hands that I REALLY thought I had wrapped up when I bet the river. I am not used to that as I felt I was almost always sure I had it won when I bet the river playing .50/$1 and I was right the majority of the time. Not here though.

Current stats with totally meaningles sample size is:

VP$IP: 15.50
VP$IP from SB: 25.86
Folded SB to steal: 72.22
Folded BB to steal: 64.71
Att. to steal: 23.94
Won $ when saw flop: 35.4%
Amount won: $174.08
BB/100: 2.11
Went to SD: 37.16
Won $ at SD: 49.53
PF Raise: 9.79
Post-Flop Aggression: 3.22

Another thing I noticed is that my won $ at SD has dropped. I am finding it tough to get above 50% as I used to have. I am unsure why. Maybe hands like this are the reason as I am staying in hands with fish that I should be folding. This is my thinking anyway.

Anyway, long story short. I believe I am making some major mistakes against fish (i.e. loose-passive/passive players). Here is one example. The fish bet into me on the flop. I'm finding almost every time a fish bets into me, I am beat. Maybe I should be folding almost every time they bet into me? After all, fish don't bluff "usually". (I have seen a few that do lately as well.)

Here is one example hand. After reading the above information and from your $1/$2 experience, what do you think? Do you think I should stop being aggressive when a fish bets back at me? How about just fold as I know they have 2 pair or better pretty much EVERY time?

Help me out here. SB is the fish btw. He check-raised me on the flop. I just realized this to tell you the truth as I was multi-tabling and just thought he acted behind me and raised at the time. Now that I see he check-raised me, it is obvious I should have let him take the lead and called down. Although it cost me the same amount of money either way as he went passive as fish normally do and just called me down. But the real question is, why shouldn't I just fold to the check raise, knowing he has me beat at that point since he is a LP-P? Or call the flop bet and fold on the turn unimproved?

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Hero raises, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (8 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

All comments appreciated.

ThreeAces · #2 12-19-2004, 03:22 AM

You were too (and unsuccessfully) aggressive w/ AJo and QQ at the 2 + 2 table Friday night, IMO, for what its worth.
"FWM"

Cardzy · #3 12-19-2004, 01:58 PM

Thanks, but how could I have not been that aggressive? Both hands were dominated if I remember correctly. The AJo I should have folded preflop as I was UTG, and sure enough I turned out dominated and he let me bet all the way to the river where he raised me.

The QQ was same thing I believe, although I don't remember that hand as well, I believe I was beat by AA. If your hand is dominated and you are the aggressor and the person holding the better hand is just letting you bet into him without raising, what are you supposed to do? Stop betting?

I could be wrong about the exact sequence of betting on these hands but can pull them out of my PT and double check when I get home. But I don't believe I was "too" aggressive with those hands. Maybe I can post those hands for discussion as well and see what everyone thinks. You may be right and I could have a leak hiding in those hands somewhere.

Question is though, what do you think about the hand/post in question here? I still haven't gotten a single reply to it.

droolie · #4 12-19-2004, 05:15 PM

You can't worry about you BB/100 yet. Your winning. Relax. The fact that your win at SD % is down shows you've been surprised more often than usual. My guess is this is just a combination of variance and less fish calling down with nothing.

You can't fold an overpair like that to a flop C/R, especially HU unless you're 90% sure you're behind a set.

Your play was standard here. Many players who made top pair would C/R heads up here. Once you reraise and he goes all limp you have to asume you have a strong chance of being ahead. If he never shows aggression again and wins at SD, that's the exception, not the rule. You will find the majority of players who have an overpair beaten showing more aggression on later streets than this villain did. In this case I would have played it the same as you.

If he caps the flop or C/R's the turn you can think about letting this hand go if your read is that he would never do these without at least two pair.

Cardzy · #5 12-19-2004, 05:40 PM

Thanks for the reply Droolie! My concern lies in the fact that the majority of the time a loose/passive player shows any minor sign of aggression into me they always have 2 pair or more. I did not notice this happening that often at .50/$1 and my aggression ended up paying off most of the time. $1/$2 though seems it isn't paying off anywhere near as often.

I'm very curious as to whether a change in my strategy by slowing down or folding (probably just slowing down at first) would save me a bunch of money and increase my bb/100 since this situation happens very often. Fish are fish because they are so loose/passive and scared to bet. So when they bet out it actually means something. If pushed back with more aggression (as my reraise did) they slow down and just call down pretty much every time and I seldom ever see more aggression out of them unless there hand improves even more than the 2 pair they have already.

Does anyone else use this strategy or slow down in situations like these or does everyone agree it is best to keep the aggression going as normal?

Currently I am thinking I have two leaks in my game. One is this with the passive players and the other is not slowing down when someone comes alive on the turn. I could be way off base and not know what I'm talking about either. LOL. Would hate to change up and mess up my basic game strategy, but I am seriously considering changing strategies a bit in these situations.

Anyway, curious what others think? Anyone?

Ajax410 · #6 12-19-2004, 05:52 PM

If you start folding evert TPTK you have to people coming alive at the turn, you will be folding at least a few winners - and these hands more than balance out the times you're behind.

With the hand you posted, you have an overpair. If anything, you should just call the flop check/raise, but only so that you can then raise the turn and make an extra small bet in total.

If you are posting a BB/100 of 2+, you should be pleased. Are you crushing the game? No. Are you beating the game for enough money so that, given the fact that you're new, you will eventually be crushing the game? Yes.

I'm now going to tell you a story.

Back in August I started playing Limit Hold'em. I was primarily a NL Tournament player, and had made a decent amount of money doing it, but my friend from back home told me limit was the way to go. I started out 4-tabling 2/4 (I am a complete jackass), killed the game, and moved to 3/6 where one downswing brought my roll down to like $6.

I was forced to reasses my play and start at .5/1, where over 20k hands I've now posted a winrate of around 3.8 BB/100.

After a few weeks at .5/1, I moved to 1/2, where I've now played around 15k hands, and posted a winrate of 3.1 BB/100.

I am pretty positive I am a winning player at 2/4 after close to 30k hands there, yet my BB/100 is not THAT much better than yours. In fact, I'm pretty sure that barring the worst downswing of my brief poker career, I'm a winning player at 3/6, yet still, my BB/100 at 1/2 is not that impressive.

The fact is, once you learn the game, get comfortable with the levels of aggression and the betting amounts, you will beat the game. The players aren't good enough at 1/2, 2/4, or even 3/6, to warrant much higher level poker thought. If you play well, play your cards for the most part, and play your opponents rarely, you will still be a winning poker player at 1/2.

You played your hand above VERY well. If you lost, that sucks. Really - it sucks. But, the second you lose the aggression you show above, you will become a losing, or at least, a less winning, player. Maintain the aggression, get comfortable with the game, and the results will follow. Hope this helped.

Alex

Carmine · #7 12-19-2004, 08:11 PM

I have to reply here and say I know exactly how Cardzy feels. Your post is exactly what I have been pondering for the last three days. Every weekend these fish come out and my winrate can skyrocket when I'm lucky (and yes it is only luck) and these fish are turning up empty on the river. On the other hand when those fish are hitting they really broadside you and can easily wipe out an entire weeks worth of hardwork and positive winrate. I know flucuation is a big part of poker, but I think a truley winning player has to make adjustments.

Maybe...just maybe "Aggressive Power Poker" may not always be the right path. These fish play exactly as Cardzy described and 9 times out of 10 when they playback at you your done. You can't put them on a hand. You figure they are weak so when you raise PF with AK and the flop comes A52.. You bet..they raise..you 3-bet (or you may wait till the turn to open up so as to not scare them off their A/rag) problem is they don't hold A/rag they hold 5,2 soooted. Yes against your EP raise and an MP 3-bet preflop. Think about it. How many times do you sit there at showdown with your jaw drooped just thinking WTF. And if we are good poker players we respond with a friendly "nice hand" put them in our buddy list and move on. They are our bread and butter right.

Well I'm sorry but there has to be a better way. I refuse to leave it up to the poker gods as to weather I win or lose against these passive fish.

The one poster that said you can't fold to every c/r from these guys I'm sure is right, but we may have to start folding much more often like it or not. Starting hand selection I think needs to change. TPTK is no longer good often enough to make it profitable. Big hands, sets minimum, straights, flushes and boats are needed. Playing more suited and even unsuited connectors. Limp with more hands and fit(big) or fold. Raising may be considered chip spewing. They call no matter what.

I don't know if I'm right. Maybe you more experienced players have figured out the correct adjustment or even if any are required. If so PLEASE share.

Cardzy · #8 12-19-2004, 09:11 PM

I don't agree with everything you stated, that is for sure. But I understand where your coming from and some of what you say makes sense. I mean no offense but your statements appear to be based on a lot of bad beats and your emotions related to them as opposed to actual poker strategy. I could have just read more into your post than there really was too, please forgive me if that is the case.

My statement/question is specifically related to a modification in strategy against specifically one type of player and whether it would be a +EV move to adapt in this manner or not.

Carmine · #9 12-19-2004, 10:18 PM

Cardzy the emotion that might be involved is just from the desire to become a better player and not from bad beats etc.
I think we are both after the same thing. A strategy that works better against that Fish other than the "They will pay you off when they miss" strategy. Well actually I'm referring to a table full of fish rather than just any one fish. One fish can hurt you every now and then but with a table full of them you can sustain some big losses very quickly when they all are catching.
My previous response was to try and inspire some debate as to the best strategy to handle such a situation. The ideas I mentioned my be sound or they may be ludicrous. I'm sure others have experimented with ways to gain a better edge over a very loose table. I would love to hear some tried and succeeded/failed attempts.

afk · #10 12-19-2004, 10:44 PM

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They are our bread and butter right.

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You nailed it right there.

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I refuse to leave it up to the poker gods as to weather I win or lose against these passive fish.

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Good, because the rest of us don't leave it up to them either. I tend to rely on math, hand reading and some other principles of solid play that I'm forgetting.

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TPTK is no longer good often enough to make it profitable.

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I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. A sizeable chunk of my winnings in the past 35,000 hands has come from one pair type hands, and they all aren't even close to being TPTK.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising may be considered chip spewing. They call no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you fold ATo to raise from a tight EP raiser because you know it is the correct move and calling is a losing play in the long run, then why complain when you get AK and they call your raise with AT? Forget about winning individual pots. Start thinking about winning money.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I'm right. Maybe you more experienced players have figured out the correct adjustment or even if any are required. If so PLEASE share.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now we're talking. Keep at it. Keep the aggression up. Most of all, keep posting here, post hands, reply to hands and most importantly - be able to learn from and apply the constructive criticism you're given... and don't take it personally when you get lynched for making a terrible play - adjusting your play accordingly will make you more money in the future.

Don't just follow the advice you're given, understand it through and through. Experience, it's all about experience. If you apply what you learn on these forums and in 2+2 books correctly your bankroll will grow.

And last of all. Good luck at the tables.