Basic Pot Odds Questions - Please Help a New Guy

[BradleyT]

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But perhaps, TOP is just saying when making the FIRST call and you KNOW a raise will come behind then you should factor it in, in which case you may be advised to just fold on the first call.

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This is correct. In EP you often have to figure in a possible raise behind so instead of calling $10 into the $50 pot it might really be $20 into a $70 pot.

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But are they saying once you are raised behind that you should calculate pot odds based on both of your calls (which would likely decrease pot odds), and thereby lead to more situations in which you might call a bet only to fold to a subsequent raiser in the same round?

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Once you call one bet it's almost never wrong to call the second bet (barring a read such as he only raises with top set and I'm drawing dead with 2 pair or someone between me and the raiser might get tricky and 3-bet it).

[DarrenJG]

Thanks.

This is precisely my confusion. What you are saying is if a raise comes behind you, then your pot odds would actually be 3.5 to 1 since you're putting a total of $20 into a $70 pot for the round (under your scenario).

This runs counter to what Keyser seems to be saying on his last post. His understanding is that the first $10 before you were raised is already in the pot and gone - so the pot odds would actually be 7 to 1 - an additional $10 into a $70 pot, despite the fact that you already put in $10 earlier in the round.

I'm not sure which one is correct.

Darren, I have a question for you - have you actually played much poker? It almost seems like you're so weighed down with information from TOP, but no poker experience to relate it to.

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This runs counter to what Keyser seems to be saying on his last post. His understanding is that the first $10 before you were raised is already in the pot and gone - so the pot odds would actually be 7 to 1 - an additional $10 into a $70 pot, despite the fact that you already put in $10 earlier in the round.

I'm not sure which one is correct.

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To answer this question, there are two sides to the sword. You are asking if you should call 1 raise. The answer is, of course. Like you said, if you had odds to call the first bet (5 to 1), then folding now (8-1) would make no sense. New pot odds should be considered each decision, even if it's in the same round of betting.

HOWEVER...

You are only getting 8-1 because you've already dumped $10 into the pot. You're really paying $20 to see the next card, coming to 4-to-1 on your money. The only relevance to this second side is if you can predict someone raising behind you. This should make more sense when it actually happens to you.

Here's a good example:

Same situation as before, starting with a $40 pot. P1 bets ($10), you call ($10), P3 raises ($20), P1 re-raises ($30). Now you are to act, required to call another $20. Basic pot odds would say specify that you're putting $20 into a $100 pot, but I would probably assume that P3 is going to cap. Therefore, when it's all said and done, you will actually putting another $30 into a $120 pot.

[DarrenJG]

"Darren, I have a question for you - have you actually played much poker? It almost seems like you're so weighed down with information from TOP, but no poker experience to relate it to."

I've got some experience under my belt and I'm trying to sharpen the theory. This is just a fine distinction I was trying to clarify on a fundamental point since TOP was not entirely clear and people's understanding on the forums seems to differ. I just wanted to make sure what I've been doing is theoretically correct - better than just guessing and wondering.

Actually, judging by your response, the answer to my question is BOTH of the suggested answers I mentioned. This is not exactly crystal clear stuff.

So, it sounds like you're saying the pot odds are NOT really calculated cumulatively, since once you put money in the pot it is gone, HOWEVER, if you anticipate a raise behind then you should AT THAT POINT calculate in the added call you know you'll end up making. But if you get a SURPRISE raise behind you, the pot odds for that next call will just be based on that one call.

Is this correct?

Thanks.

[jtr]

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So, it sounds like you're saying the pot odds are NOT really calculated cumulatively, since once you put money in the pot it is gone, HOWEVER, if you anticipate a raise behind then you should AT THAT POINT calculate in the added call you know you'll end up making. But if you get a SURPRISE raise behind you, the pot odds for that next call will just be based on that one call.

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Others seem to have answered your questions pretty comprehensively, but I just wanted to say that I think you've put it extremely well here.

[DarrenJG]

Thanks. I think 'I am fish' explained the underlying theory VERY well in his post. That REALLY helped me.

What a great forum - thanks again to all who responded.