A Reasonable Religion

[maurile]

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5. Because he wants his conscious creations to be happy, he needs for there to be consequences to people who are not good to each other. That is the only reason he wants people to believe in him. It is not about his ego. It is that to get around Prisoner Dilemma problems, to keep polluters from polluting, etc. etc. some may need to worry about divine consequences and won't if they are atheists.

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If he wants people to worry about divine consequences, he should provide evidence that there are divine consequences.

To join your religion, am I supposed to believe that he has provided such evidence?

[Hermlord]

David,

Good post -- I think this is a much more fruitful tactic than attacking other religions.

I wonder what you think of Karma? Karma (as I am defining it) says that you will be punished or rewarded according to your actions. However, this is not done by an external agent (i.e., God) but by the natural laws of the universe. In other words it is a (NOT SCIENTIFIC) extension of action-reaction to higher-order phenomena like justice. Karma does not specify the form of this reaction; it could come from nature, other people, your own consciousness, etc.

I believe in Karma because I have found it to be true in my own life, and throughout history. Admittedly Karma is easier to see if you believe in reincarnation (which I do, though in a non-literal form). But this is not necessary a priori.

[David Sklansky]

If he wants people to worry about divine consequences, he should provide evidence that there are divine consequences.

To join your religion, am I supposed to believe that he has provided such evidence?

No. Because he hasn't. But people will worry anyway.

[NotReady]

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Man telling me what God says simply is not enough for me.


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The Bible claims to be God's Word, not man's. Salvation is by faith, so you have to make a decision. The Koran says many things that are different from the Bible, though it also copies much from the Bible. The chief difference is that the Koran does not recognize Jesus as the Son of God, nor does it acknowledge any need for salvation. Again, the question is whether you believe in Jesus or not.

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All I can say it would be a heck of a lot easier to accept Christ as your savior when he is standing in front of you asking you if you accept him.


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Perhaps you think it would be. Many saw Him, talked to Him and witnessed His miracles, yet did not believe.

Here's an interesting passage from Matthew, spoken by Jesus:

Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

[The Goober]

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They offer their services to married men which some would argue is not in the best interest of humankind.

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Hmm... do I detect a bit of old-school judeo-christian morality here? Does this mean that bar owners are sinners, since they offer their services to alcoholics? For that matter, how are poker players any better, since we regularly offer our "services" to gambling addicts? Obviously, helping acoholics drink and gambling addicts lose their money isn't in the best interest of society either.

You should read Megenoita's posts in the "women in casinos" thread in the B&M forum. He's a devout christian who makes the argument that humans are inheirantly weak and should avoid temptation rather than learn to resist it - if you blame prostitutes for breaking up marriages, then it would seem that you agree with this.

[Warren Whitmore]

"...Mysticism is the acceptance of allegations without evidence or proof, either apart from or against the evidence of one's senses and one's reason. Mysticism is the claim to some non-sensory, non-rational, non-definable, non-identifiable means of knowledge, such as instinct, intuition, revelation, or any form of just knowing.

Reason is the perception of reality, and rests on a single axiom: the Law of Identity.

Mysticism is the claim to the perception of some other reality other than the one in which we live whose definition is only that it is not natural, it is supernatural, and is to be perceived by some form of unnatural or supernatural means.

Reasonis the faculty which perceives, identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses. Mysticism is the claim to a non-sensory means of knowledge..... - Ayn Rand

You are attempting to mix Mysticism and Reason together. Which cannot be done because they are incompatible.

[obsidian]

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The Bible claims to be God's Word, not man's. Salvation is by faith, so you have to make a decision. The Koran says many things that are different from the Bible, though it also copies much from the Bible. The chief difference is that the Koran does not recognize Jesus as the Son of God, nor does it acknowledge any need for salvation. Again, the question is whether you believe in Jesus or not.

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What makes the Bible any more truthful from other books that claim to be God's word (like the Koran)? There has been thousands of different gods worshipped by humans throughout history. Many of them having scriptures that claimed to be the word of the God they worshipped. How am I to know the Bible is the true one and the others are false? Because it says so?

My point is, if God is all-powerful and what I believed was such an important issue as to determine my fate for the rest of eternity, then He should tell me what to believe and what is false. I just don't have the faith to blindly believe that the Bible has to be the word of God because it says it is.

[NotReady]

If you seriously want to know about the Bible there are many sources on the net and plenty of critical sites as well. This is just one:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

I'm not endorsing everything on this site, it just was one of the first that popped up in a Google search. I don't know what specific questions or objections you might have and the subject of the Bible is enormous. God promises that if "you seek, you will find". If you approach the investigation of His Word, He will open your eyes to the truth. There are also many Christian forums populated by believers far more versed in these kind of questions than me. I'm not trying to duck your questions but am pointing you to a method of answering them more completely than I can.

I will say that faith is not blind. There are evidences, arguments and reasons for faith. But there is no such thing as absolute, objective, certain proof. God has chosen faith as the instrument through which we are saved. He has the power to convince you and to assure you of His truth. But you have to do the hearing and the believing.

[Aytumious]

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The Bible claims to be God's Word, not man's. Salvation is by faith, so you have to make a decision. The Koran says many things that are different from the Bible, though it also copies much from the Bible. The chief difference is that the Koran does not recognize Jesus as the Son of God, nor does it acknowledge any need for salvation. Again, the question is whether you believe in Jesus or not.


[/ QUOTE ]How am I to know the Bible is the true one and the others are false? Because it says so?

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In a nutshell, yes, that is what NotReady's belief system comes down to.

[mosquito]

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Here is an outline of a set of religious beliefs that I would find hard to argue with.

1. God created the three dimenional universe, via the Big Bang about 15 billion years ago.

2. God set up physical constants, laws of physics, and quarks that incorporated inherent randomness (a necessary feature to allow free will).

3. God realized that with these initial "axioms", the laws of logic, which even he can't break, would eventually produce conscious beings here and there. He liked that.

4. The question as to whether God is totally omnipotent is irrelevant to this religion. So is where he came from, has he always existed, or whether some super God created him. Even if there was a super god, only this God cares about his conscious creations and wants them to be happy.

5. Because he wants his conscious creations to be happy, he needs for there to be consequences to people who are not good to each other. That is the only reason he wants people to believe in him. It is not about his ego. It is that to get around Prisoner Dilemma problems, to keep polluters from polluting, etc. etc. some may need to worry about divine consequences and won't if they are atheists.

6. The consequences may not need God's hands on approach. He might have set it up in advance. Knowing the specifics is completely unnecessary.

7. These consequences are solely related to how good you are. How often and how badly you break the Golden Rule. And how often you go above and beyond the call of duty. They are utterly unrelated to your religion. If you do good without believing in this God, that is fine with him. Your rewards will be equal to those who believe.

8. On the other hand if you do bad you are facing consequences. Who knows what. But there is a way out. Namely by doing extra credit good to make up for the bad. Do enough and you wipe the slate clean. Do less and you mitigate the punishment. (Notice that this would be a disaster for those who have done terribly in the past or for those who know that can't stop doing bad. It seems like a lot of the fervent believers I know fit one of these two categories which I don't think is a coincidence. They get to say that we are ALL horrible sinners because of Adam and Eve and that in spite of this, believing in Jesus gets us into heaven. How convenient if you spent half your life as a thief, whore or scoundrel, or if you know you have no will power.)

There you have it. A new religion. Sklanskyanity.

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When is the Kool-Aide party? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]