Hand from Bellagion 5 Diamond

[betgo]

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http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/play...a=r&n=1697

The more I think about this hand and the player in question, the less I buy Gigabet's assertion that the only hands she will pay off with here are KK or 6 or turned fullhouse.

I'm in agreement with pretty much everything shaniac said, except the notion that she may have been setting up this play. I find that hard to believe, but not impossible.

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I don't think Gigabet presented it accurately. There was no way AA or AK was folding, but 99-JJ or AQ probably would fold.

It seems like he misread the betting pattern on the hand and the relation to the board and her likely reraising hands. Also his opponent probably did a good job of convincing him she did not have a strong hand and was weaktight in general. However, making a play like this against a tight opponent will frequently work.

[gumpzilla]

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I think Giga's read is being questioned more than the actual play.

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Well, this seems natural. The only thing left to question about the play if you assume the read is how many hands she could have gotten to the river with at all, and then it's simple math. Discussing this hand without being able to discuss the read is pointless.

The one thing I've been pondering about was his read that the rest of the table knew he was super-loose preflop, but only bet with the near nuts postflop. I think a lot of players might not make that distinction, and would still put him in the LAG/tricky category. I know I probably would.

Is this a case of the old "wrong place at the wrong time" cliche? Plan a bank robbery for years and just as you're peelin' out with the loot, the SWAT team van drives by.

Gigabet: Established an image of loose pre-flop play combined with passive post-flop play. An image he obviously worked to create a situation exactly like this. One where he could manipulate the pot and his opponent using bet size and table image to force JJ out with the best hand. The way he played the hand out and based on his read, she could conceivably lay down a range of hands, all of which were best (JJ-AA, and AK). We can't criticize the play of Giga here, he set an elaborate trap, and trusted himself and his reads. When it comes down to it, you have nothing else to count on but yourself and the reads you've developed throughout the tournament. A victim of bad luck here?? OR...a victim of a better player...on this hand anyway...

JJ: Established a weak tight image. Showed the ability to lay down a big hand in the face of heat. However, what better reason for such an image than to use it against an opponent attempting to bully her?? Her bet on the flop is key. Without a sizeable pot, there is no reason for Giga to continue with this elaborate bluff. The 1/4 pot bet on the flop could be construed as a probe bet, and attempt to win a small pot but allow an exit should she face some heat. The rest just fell into place for her, she really did nothing more of significance after that, as Giga played right into her. The smooth call turn could have been suspicious, and could have slowed down giga, but in his defense, she hasn't given any indication of supreme strength here...she could have pushed the turn, but when that didn't happen, giga could be confident she's on the defensive and looking simply for a check-check and showdown on the river.

All in all, I think Giga was outplayed on this hand, but through no fault of his own, because this play SHOULD have worked. And I know i'm a lot better at playing with the nuts than I am at setting an elaborate bluff. And maybe that's what happened for JJ. And there are some great posts here (shaniac, Diablo, roman, lots more). I'm truly on the fence here and still flopping back and forth.

[pergesu]

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Unfortunately it turns out she had the only conceivable hand there that he thought she'd call with.

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Surely you are kidding when you use language like that.

There are only a handful of hands that a player described as she was can have in this spot, and she calls with MOST of them.

Just because she folded KK faceup on a paired board earlier in the tournament, does not mean that she's going to fold TPTK or AA in this spot.

Gigabet didnt play the hand in a way that would convince any backboned player that AK or AA is no good here, so the only hand that she might have re-raised preflop and played in the way she did postflop, is QQ and JJ.

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I didn't say she had the only hand she'd call with. She might call with AA/AK, you're absolutely right. I said she held the only hand that giga thought she'd call with. There's a gigantic difference there. He had a read and went with it, and unfortunately ran into the only hand he thought he'd lose to.

[betgo]

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Is this a case of the old "wrong place at the wrong time" cliche? Plan a bank robbery for years and just as you're peelin' out with the loot, the SWAT team van drives by.

Gigabet: Established an image of loose pre-flop play combined with passive post-flop play. An image he obviously worked to create a situation exactly like this. One where he could manipulate the pot and his opponent using bet size and table image to force JJ out with the best hand. The way he played the hand out and based on his read, she could conceivably lay down a range of hands, all of which were best (JJ-AA, and AK). We can't criticize the play of Giga here, he set an elaborate trap, and trusted himself and his reads. When it comes down to it, you have nothing else to count on but yourself and the reads you've developed throughout the tournament. A victim of bad luck here?? OR...a victim of a better player...on this hand anyway...

JJ: Established a weak tight image. Showed the ability to lay down a big hand in the face of heat. However, what better reason for such an image than to use it against an opponent attempting to bully her?? Her bet on the flop is key. Without a sizeable pot, there is no reason for Giga to continue with this elaborate bluff. The 1/4 pot bet on the flop could be construed as a probe bet, and attempt to win a small pot but allow an exit should she face some heat. The rest just fell into place for her, she really did nothing more of significance after that, as Giga played right into her. The smooth call turn could have been suspicious, and could have slowed down giga, but in his defense, she hasn't given any indication of supreme strength here...she could have pushed the turn, but when that didn't happen, giga could be confident she's on the defensive and looking simply for a check-check and showdown on the river.

All in all, I think Giga was outplayed on this hand, but through no fault of his own, because this play SHOULD have worked. And I know i'm a lot better at playing with the nuts than I am at setting an elaborate bluff. And maybe that's what happened for JJ. And there are some great posts here (shaniac, Diablo, roman, lots more). I'm truly on the fence here and still flopping back and forth.

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Good analysis. I think Gigabet was carried away with setting up the elaborate bluff and didn't pay enough attention to the action and board on this hand.

I think the play looks worse than it is based on Gigabet's assertion that she would not call with AK or AA. What makes this play powerful is that she probably need atleast top pair or an over pair to call. It is possible QQ or JJ would call, but an awful lot of hands are folding.

I am sure Gigabet's aggressive approach does work frequently, or he wouldn't be back in second place. Of course getting allin against 2 players with AA helped.

This hand give a feeling of the strength of Gigabet's play, even though he made a bad misread.

There are a lot of people who are afraid to make a semibluff for all their chips. Look at the play Varkonyi made where he made a 3rd raise allin with QTs versus Hellmuth button versus BB. He had the worse hand, but it was a good play, it doubled him up, and helped set up some bad calls by his opponent's when he had big hands later on.

I know Varkonyi got lucky and Moneymaker got lucky, but making well timed big bluffs and semibluffs helped weak players like that win the big one.

Here Gigabet made a pure bluff for almost all his chips. It didn't work because his opponent had the nuts, but it works pretty often. A lot of people don't have the nerve to make that kind of play. He also picked a spot and set the play up with his prior play and bets on other streets. Not only do you win the pot frequently with plays like that, but you get a lot more action when you push and you are not bluffing.

[Gigabet]

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I think her line, especially given the image she had, was really great. Perhaps she too was setting the stage for a play.

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Well said. Most of the players in these events, who end up at my table for any length of time, end up basing their long term strategy around a way to take advantage of my seemingly reckless play. I usually can dodge the bullets and use it against them. However, JJ clearly got the best of me here. Her flop bet definitely was made with the intention of disguising the strength of her hand. She knows that she is getting something with her hand, if she checks behind, she knows that I will lead the turn, I rarely check it twice, so her having that hand while I am in the hand has inherent value, she however, was able to induce me to take over the business of controlling the size of the pot, by making the seemingly weak looking flop bet. I read the bet correctly, that she was "relatively" strong, and acted accordingly. With my read, that she may have well implanted, I knew that getting her off of the hand would be relatively easily done, if I could gain control of the pot. Once that happened, JJ was able to let me do all of her dirty work. Clearly her flop bet was engineered to get me to put alot more chips in than I would otherwise had she checked behind on the flop.

I'll bet she didn't think that I would be foolish enough to put as many as I did though. Probably make her alot more careful about the spots that she picks when involved with me. Doesn't matter how much you think a player is bluffing, when first place equals a new lifestyle for most people and the current spot can just catch most up on their late bills, calling that bet takes alot of courage without a very strong holding, even if the player in question induced me to make the "obvious" bluff.

As I was helping her stack her newly acquired million chips, I complemented her on her play, and mentioned that I had yet to give all of my chips to a nicer person. She was very graceful after the hand was over, and maybe even felt a little bad about me losing so many chips. I made certain that she knew that I really felt as if she deserved the chips, for her well thought out play. There is nothing bad that can be said of this woman, and she definitely deserves all of the good things that came together in this tournament for her. I would definitely enjoy playing HU with her, although, with my newly revised read of her thinking, she may find it quite a bit more difficult to get the chips from me.

GL Darrell. Must be surreal.

[Degen]

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That 75 hand wasn't posted correctly, BTW. I did not call an all in bet, I would have folded in that situation. Preflop action is described well enough, but postflop here is how it happened. I checked, Patrick bet 20k, I made it 60k, he then reraised me to 160k. I then pushed, and he instantly called. Immediately I thought he was going to turn over top set when he called so quickly, and was relieved to see KJ. Very nice to win the toss in that spot, but with stacks as deep as ours were, I think that he would have the presence of mind to fold that hand, or others similar. I never am pushing in that spot, against a good player, with the intention of getting called by a worse hand, I just wanted to pick up the pot. I don't feel comfortable playing that large of a pot, when not in position, to the river with a hand as vulnerable as mine was. Patrick definitely is going to put enough pressure on me in later streets to make it nearly impossible to think that my hand could be good, unless it improves.

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dear god, get some sleep man

[2005]

I'm just now getting around to seeing this thread and I'm intrigued by it. Some people seem to just take completely for granted that Gigabet will have the perfect read in every situation at all times. I believe, from what I've heard, that Darrell is an extremely talented player and I know that he thought this hand through. But, why isn't it possible that his read is off here? I've played with JJ several times before. Calling her weak/tight is laughable. In my experiences with her, she is as loose/aggro as it gets. Darrell gave you one hand and some conversation to suggest that she might be willing to fold a big hand and this is what justifies a huge bluff against a (supposedly weak/tight)player who showed strength preflop, on the flop, and on the turn? I agree with Shaniac here. I think you just have to give up on the river. It looks to me like she's said "Ok, I'm not folding this hand, keep firing if you will."

Also, let's add this into the equation... When she folded the KK face up against Laak, it was to something like the 4th raise and it was on the flop. That is a much different situation than we're talking about here. I think everyone is discounting her turn call of 200k way too much.